Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 31st, 2008

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

No, seven.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

But I guess we should give you your seven as well. So go ahead, sir.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I have a couple of quick questions.

First of all, Carmel, just following up on the question by my Bloc colleague, for the people who aren't lawyers and who practise law for a fee, how do you govern that in British Columbia? What penalties do they have?

[Carmel Wiseman]

There's actually quite a vast response to that.

First of all, there are some people who legally provide legal services in British Columbia who aren't lawyers. The most notable group there consists of notaries public. They're not to be confused with notaires au Québec.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

But there are those who aren't legally providing services. How do you deal with them? What's the penalty? Narrow it down to that.

[Carmel Wiseman]

The Legal Profession Act provides that the law society can bring proceedings in the Supreme Court, and the law society does regularly bring proceedings in the Supreme Court and obtains injunctions against unauthorized practitioners.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Is that proceeding brought by the law society itself? For instance, would CSIC be in a position similar to the law society?

[Carmel Wiseman]

Typically that's how it's done in British Columbia, yes. Sometimes it's done by way of criminal proceedings.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

There is a second thing I want to talk to you about. In the law society, it's lawyers governing themselves. They ensure there is a certain level of competence. They have professional standards, there's discipline for those who need discipline, and there are ethics that lawyers deal with. Would you agree with me that CSIC provides a similar function, or ought to provide a similar function, to ensure the public is protected vis-à-vis those three mechanisms?

[Carmel Wiseman]

Certainly it's my understanding that the objective in setting up CSIC was to provide something similar.

The one thing I would point out is that in addition to lawyers governing lawyers within the law society, the law society also has on its board of directors what are called lay benchers. They are directors who are not lawyers, and they also provide some public oversight into the program.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Just to clarify, are you asking for more stringent policing mechanisms with relation to those who are non-practising or non-registered with CSIC than you would have under the law society?

[Carmel Wiseman]

No. I think what we are asking for is similar proceedings, although I would say that some of the cases that I'm aware of that deal with unregistered immigration consultants really move into the fraud ground and go beyond the question of a civil matter.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I want to save a few questions for Alex.

With respect to Bill C-50 as it relates to immigration, you've gone through the provisions there and you made reference to the minister using her discretion--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

He was never one to follow his own point of order.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It's interesting that everybody in this room can talk about it except me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You were the one who brought up the point of order originally.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

But nobody paid attention to it, including the presenter, and I think I'm entitled to question witnesses--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I was somewhat lenient with Mr. St-Cyr, Mr. Komarnicki, so I'll give you the same recognition.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

First, isn't there a difference between exercising discretion...? Bill C-17 is the one that's before this committee, and you talked about that.

[Alex Stojicevic]

Yes, absolutely.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

The minister exercising discretion on a case basis is one thing, but issuing an instruction is something different from exercising discretion. Would you agree?

[Alex Stojicevic]

I agree absolutely--100%.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

And the instruction is based on general broad policy considerations that the government of the day puts forward to the minister. Wouldn't you agree?

[Alex Stojicevic]

I agree absolutely--100%.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

And the government stands or falls with the public with respect to those general broad policy considerations. Would you agree?