Evidence of meeting #18 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was worker.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roslyn Kunin  Director, British Columbia Office, Canada West Foundation
Martin Collacott  Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute
Don DeVoretz  Professor of Economics, Co-Director and Principal Investigator of the Centre of Excellence on Immigration and Integration, Simon Fraser University, Canadian Immigration Policy Council
David Fairey  Researcher, Trade Union Research Bureau, British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building and Construction Trades Council
Wayne Peppard  Executive Director, British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building and Construction Trades Council
Joe Barrett  Researcher, British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building and Construction Trades Council
Lualhati Alcuitas  Grassroots Women
Erika Del Carmen Fuchs  Organizer, Justicia for Migrant Workers--British Columbia
Tung Chan  Chief Executive Officer, S.U.C.C.E.S.S.
Denise Valdecantos  Board Member, Philippine Women Centre of BC
Mildred German  Member, Filipino-Canadian Youth Alliance - National, Philippine Women Centre of BC
Alex Stojicevic  Chair, National Citizenship and Immigration Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
Carmel Wiseman  Lawyer, Policy and Legal Services Department, Law Society of British Columbia
Nancy Salloum  Chairperson, Canadian Society of Immigration Practitioners
Elie Hani  Vice-Chair, Canadian Society of Immigration Practitioners

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Mr. Chair, I said when I started that I had two points. We dealt with one, and I'm going to go and make a phone call on that to find out, because I think you are misinterpreting the rules.

But regarding the second point I was going to raise—and again, it's a procedural point, not a substantive point—the fact of the matter is that before this House adjourned for the two-week break, without this committee knowing anything about it, the government tabled Bill C-50, in which they brought major changes to the Immigration Act, an incredible change in the Immigration Act that would take away a right to—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

These hearings are not about the Immigration Act. They're about three matters that we agreed to and that I went to the liaison committee about. That is an all-party committee of the House of Commons, and I had to get approval to travel for those three items.

It's not about Bill C-50.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Can I just finish speaking before you interrupt me?

What I'm saying is that we have made such a huge change to the Immigration Act through that proposal that it will substantially alter the whole process of immigration and the right of people to come into Canada as immigrants. Instead of having the process that we now have guaranteed by law, we changed it into a capricious lottery. This so fundamentally alters the Immigration Act in this country that, quite frankly, sir, I should be back in Parliament debating the issue. It makes a joke of the travelling undertaken on cross-Canada consultation, because the Conservative government—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please. Order.

We are here today to discuss those three issues. That is totally irrelevant.

Ms. Chow, please.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

If I can finish on that motion—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

No, you're not finishing, Mr. Telegdi. You're finished on that one.

Ms. Chow.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Mr. Chair, my motion on that is going to be a procedural motion, and it's something we can all agree on.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We are not accepting motions. We agreed that we would not accept—

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Mr. Chair, it's a procedural motion.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

The meeting is adjourned.

1:25 p.m.

Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, CPC)

The Chair

Order please.

Again, I'm asking the press to shut off the cameras. I'm asking committee members to get back to the table, please.

We do have a quorum, and I'm very anxious to get this meeting on the go again. As I said a moment ago, we've all come long distances, including our witnesses who are here to give us their views on some very, very important matters.

Ms. Chow spoke to me before the meeting adjourned. She had a brief comment she wanted to make, and I will go to her. Then I will go to witnesses to make your points, please.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I just beg your indulgence for the next three weeks. I think there will be some witnesses who will stray into the whole notion of what gets debated in the House. Rather than our getting into a debate each time when they stray into that, if it's within the seven minutes, let's not debate whether they should or shouldn't, whether it's in order or not in order. Sometimes it's very difficult for the witnesses to tell the difference. They get confused. I just want to make sure that's the case, so we don't get into a big fight each time, because I can just see it coming.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We're going to be very flexible. I've indicated to the witnesses that it's their time. If they wish to go over, that's fine.

I would welcome witnesses and apologize again on behalf of the committee that this happens. You have briefs that you wish to distribute to the committee, and you've given them....

I want to welcome you again. I would ask you to make your opening statements, please. I'm sure committee members might have some questions they would like to ask you.

1:30 p.m.

Dr. Roslyn Kunin Director, British Columbia Office, Canada West Foundation

I'm Roslyn Kunin of the Canada West Foundation. I'm going to talk about temporary and undocumented workers, because my colleagues here can cover the other areas very thoroughly.

I want to paint a picture in the heads of the committee members of why we are having this issue of temporary workers and undocumented workers at a level that we have never had before in this country in living memory of anybody in this room. That is because, particularly in the west, we are facing a perfect storm of very, very high demand for workers. We have a very strong economy, which needs lots and lots of workers at every level, from entry-level workers to wash dishes, up through senior health professionals, and all the trades and technical workers in between. So on the one hand we have very strong demand, particularly in the west. When I say the west, I mean Manitoba through B.C., because all these areas are now really booming economically.

Second, along with this very strong economic demand for workers, we are facing the beginning of a demographic trend, which we all knew was coming, in that most of the people walking around in Canada now are baby boomers. They were born between 1945 and 1965. They are reaching retirement age, and they are leaving the labour force. So in addition to our need for workers to feed a booming economy, we desperately need workers to replace all those workers who are reaching retirement age and are retiring. So we have a very, very strong demand for workers.

It has reached a point...and as an economist, this is something I have never seen, and frankly, never expected to see. Businesses sometimes don't operate because they can't get money, and businesses sometimes don't operate because they can't get customers, and businesses sometimes don't operate because prices for their products aren't high enough for them to make a profit. But now, for the very first time, I am seeing businesses where all these conditions are met and they aren't operating because they can't get enough workers to do their particular business. So that is why we have unprecedented demand for temporary workers, that's why we're starting to have a problem with undocumented workers, and that's why we need to make a system as flexible as possible to meet the needs of the labour force.

One other change--before I run out of my seven minutes--that has occurred is the nature of work. The idea of work that most of us grew up with, that you grow up, you enter the labour force, you get a job, and you stay with that job for years, if not for your career, is long gone, and now in many of the most booming industries--construction, hospitality, technology, and many others--jobs are temporary. Not only do we need workers, but we need to give all workers, including temporary workers, foreign workers, and so on, the flexibility so we can say, “We need you because we need the work you can do; we don't need you just for one vacancy.” So if we do have temporary workers, we should say, “You can stay here as long as there's work for you in Canada, not just as long as the initial employer you came for needs you.” If he or she doesn't, there are an awful lot of other employers who do.

Those are the main points I wanted to make, Mr. Chair.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you.

Mr. Collacott.

March 31st, 2008 / 1:35 p.m.

Martin Collacott Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to talk, first of all, about labour shortages in general, then go on to temporary foreign workers, and finish up with undocumented workers, very briefly.

I think you have to look at what constitutes a labour shortage. Certainly, we have them, as Roslyn just pointed out, in the construction industry. In B.C. it's very apparent, and in other parts of the country. Some people see the temporary foreign worker programs as the best way to deal with them. Some regard that as better than bringing in large numbers of people permanently who may not be needed. If you're in a cyclical industry, like construction, you may not need them in five or ten years. But we also have to look at the extent to which we can use the resources of people already in the country.

Let's say something about temporary foreign worker programs, first of all. In the words of Alan Green, who's a very prominent expert on immigration and labour markets at Queen's, in the 1960s, when we began choosing immigrants on the basis of their qualifications rather than their origins, we did not have the educational facilities in place to meet all our skilled labour shortages. According to Professor Green, we do today, although temporary shortages may occur until they're met by normal market forces.

This conclusion was reached by other people. Human Resources and Development Canada had two researchers who found that there was no reason to believe that globally Canada is suffering from a broad-based shortage of skilled labour or that its workforce cannot fulfill the economy's needs. The researchers found that although there's been an increased frequency of specific labour shortages in certain sectors and occupations in recent years, it doesn't appear that these gaps are more common today than they were in the past or in similar stages in the business cycle.

That's something on which we differ somewhat in our emphasis, Roslyn and I.

One of the issues that I think we have to look at is that employers naturally want to meet their worker shortages as quickly and inexpensively as possible, and if this involves bringing in workers from abroad, they will seek to do so. We have to look, though, at the impact this will have on Canadian workers, taxpayers, and the economy in general. In terms of productivity, for example, labour shortages lead to higher wages, which in turn leads to increased investment in human capital through education and training and through higher productivity levels.

A good case can be made that one of the reasons why growth in productivity in Canada has lagged behind that of the U.S. and other countries in recent years is that we have the highest immigration intake per capita in the world. On this point, a Statistics Canada study released last May reported that between 1980 and 2000, immigration played a role in a 7% drop in the real earnings of Canadians with more than a university undergraduate degree.

There was an interesting precedent for the guest worker programs. The Bracero program in the U.S was created to bring in Mexican temporary workers during the war years. Eventually, in 1964, it was discontinued. The agro industry said they just couldn't afford to do without the cheap labour. When it was discontinued, they made more investment in mechanization, and the productivity actually increased.

What we should be doing is making every effort to draw unemployed Canadians, including aboriginals, women, and older people into the workforce. It doesn't make sense to leave large numbers of people unemployed or underemployed and then bring in workers from outside the country to do work that could be done by people already here. As one senior American government official put it, “immigration fixes undercut efforts to improve public education, create better retraining programs and draw the unemployed into the labour market”.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have temporary foreign workers, but we have to look at this carefully. The Quebec government, incidentally, announced less than two weeks ago that it's going to spend $1 billion on incentives to get welfare recipients and unemployed into the foreign workforce rather than automatically bringing people in from abroad.

I would just make a couple more comments before getting on to temporary foreign workers. On the relationship between immigration and economic prosperity, there were periods in Canada's development when immigration was crucial--for example, the settling of the west before the Americans did it for us--but interestingly, immigration for the most part has not been a critical element in Canadian economic development.

The Economic Council of Canada, for example, found that most of the fastest growth in real per capita income of Canadians in the 20th century occurred at times when net migration was zero or even negative. We also do not require an ever-increasing population or workforce to ensure the prosperity of Canadians, nor will immigration have any significant impact on offsetting the aging of our population. Canadian prosperity depends on sound economic policies that increase productivity and make the best use of the existing workforce.

Now turning specifically to questions of temporary foreign workers, or guest workers, as they're often called, from 2001 to 2006 we saw a dramatic increase in the number of temporary foreign workers in B.C. They increased by 129%, from just under 16,000 to more than 36,000. For Canada as a whole, there was an increase of 76% in that period, from 87,000 to 166,000. We don't have the complete figures yet for 2007, but it looks as though the increase will be even larger.

Canada had a pretty good track record on its initial temporary foreign workers program. It's the seasonal agricultural worker program that began in 1966 to bring in seasonal agricultural workers from, first, the Caribbean and then Mexico in 1974. But in 2006, in response to requests from employers, we established comprehensive lists of what are called occupations under pressure, under which employers can apply for accelerated processing of permits for temporary foreign workers to come here initially for a year. That's now been extended to two years.

With these longer periods, though, we're moving into largely uncharted waters as far as Canada is concerned. Studies done in other countries on these programs have shown there can be a lot of major problems, particularly if foreign workers stay for more than a few months, if they come from countries with significantly lower wage levels, and if they're allowed to bring family members with them.

Some of these problems are that such workers are vulnerable to exploitation. In countries like the U.S., it's been discovered that there's a high level of fraud in the applications. I won't stop to tell you what kind of fraud, but I'll describe it later if you want. Then most people coming from poorer countries want to try to stay indefinitely when their contracts are completed, when their services are no longer required.

What is required to make such a program work is a very extensive system for administering and monitoring the entry and departure of such workers and the application of strict sanctions in the case of employers who hire those who no longer have legal status in Canada. There's now a list of 235 occupations under pressure that are eligible in British Columbia alone for temporary work permits.

In addition to obvious cases like a shortage of people for the construction industry, you also have a long list of occupations that you wouldn't think would be on the list. That includes writers, journalists, photographers, conductors, composers, arrangers, actors, comedians, announcers, broadcasters, athletes, coaches, and real estate agents.

What we have to do is look very carefully at how this program is working, do some research on it, and find out what other people have done.

I think there is a place for temporary foreign workers, but I don't think we have any idea of some of the problems that are coming up, and we should be looking at them.

I have one quick word on undocumented workers. We don't know exactly how many there are, but estimates are that there may be 200,000, and up to 500,000 if family members are included. Apart from the problems they experience of being vulnerable to exploitation, the basic problem is that if their status is legalized, you will have a lot more coming here.

In 1986, the United States granted amnesty to three million illegal workers in the hope of eliminating the problem, but once they got amnesty, there were a lot more coming in, because they expected that they would get amnesty eventually. There were something like 11 million or 12 million of them.

The McCain-Kennedy bill in the U.S. Senate last year included a provision for the regularization of the status of several million illegal workers. It was defeated by public pressure.

It's extremely unwise to give legal status to undocumented workers. If they want to stay here in Canada, they should go back and come here legally, either under permanent immigration or under the temporary foreign workers program.

Those are my comments.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Collacott.

We'll go to Mr. DeVoretz.

1:45 p.m.

Professor Don DeVoretz Professor of Economics, Co-Director and Principal Investigator of the Centre of Excellence on Immigration and Integration, Simon Fraser University, Canadian Immigration Policy Council

Thank you very much for inviting me.

It actually says that in the first line. These notes have been made available. If you don't have them, I'm sure you can pick them up afterwards.

I would like today to report to you on my 15 to 20 years of scientific research on temporary foreign workers in Canada. My goal, not only in these seven minutes but in subsequent minutes, is to tell you about the pluses and minuses. What do I think are success stories and the reasons why, and what are reasons for caution in other stories?

As an economist, and I am an economist--you'll hear from other people who are sociologists--I only look at one feature when it comes to the temporary foreign worker program: does it create a net economic benefit to Canada, to Canadians who are here?

What does that mean? It means the people or agents who are involved in this process, which are the migrants, who we've just heard about; the public treasury, which represents the Canadian government; employers who would like to have these temporary foreign workers; and resident Canadian labourers. In sum, all of these benefit from the presence of a new, temporary foreign worker. This does not mean that any one individual in this calculus might not suffer a loss. But on average, is it a net benefit? This has been the rule that's been more or less in place for evaluating the temporary foreign worker program in Canada for at least 25 or 30 years.

I have two success stories. Martin has already alluded to them on economic grounds. First is the agricultural workers program. All you have to do is contrast our program with any other agricultural worker program, whether it's in Israel or Germany, with Polish workers, or Les États-Unis. They are failures. So why is ours a success?

The first reason is that it's small. If you keep it small, both the costs of administration and the ability to enforce the rules inherent in those regulations, such as adequate pay, access to health care, and payment of taxes, are all able to be monitored.

The second program, which has been very successful economically and is not unique to Canada--it's very large in Southeast Asia--is the so-called nanny program. You'll hear from other people in the program that there are problems with the nanny program, and I agree. Those are social problems. But based on my role as an economist, it's been a boon for middle-class, well-educated women living in this country. There is no doubt about it.

It was put in place also to create some benefits for, largely, Filipino nannies in the form of having rights of conversion--that is, from temporary to permanent--and rights of reconciliation.

Based on my rule of net economic gain to those people here, those are two successful programs. What are the lessons? They're small and they're focused, and part of those programs is a transition to some sort of permanent status if you contribute.

But those are small programs. The big programs for temporary foreign workers have not been mentioned. Those are the trade-related ones, the so-called TN visas, the NAFTA visas. We have agreements with Chile, Israel, and soon perhaps with South Korea, but certainly with the United States and Mexico, with mobility provisions built into trade agreements.

We really got snookered on that one; we really did. For every three Canadians who leave, one highly skilled American comes here. That has been an avenue of a large brain drain, especially prior to 2001. There's a lot of evidence on it, not just my own.

In addition, Canadians use that back door of a temporary visa to become permanent residents in the United States. Americans don't do that. When they're done working here, they go back to Cleveland, God bless them, or wherever they come from. But Canadians use that reciprocal program to remain in the United States, by either marrying or getting an E-visa.

The point about that program is that it was structured after the fact. It was a hang-on to trade, and many of our temporary foreign worker programs are like this--ad hoc. You can't change the content in that program. There are 67 occupations; you can't change them. Going in the direction of adding on temporary foreign worker programs to trade agreements, in my mind, is the wrong way to go, especially when you're doing it with an elephant living next door. They simply refuse to negotiate on it any more; they won't change the list or anything.

We have these success stories based on the “net economic gain” principle, and some very large, less-than-successful stories based on that principle too. So what are we going to do in the future? Roslyn has outlined conditions whereby we may need more temporary foreign workers; Martin has cautioned us that nonetheless, this is what we're looking at.

What would I do if I were queen for a day or immigration minister for a day on this? I would be sure that I took the lessons of the past and had a very well-focused temporary foreign workers program; not a list of 86, or whatever, but of ones that I'd know beforehand will present net economic benefit to Canada. Some of them are obvious, and you don't even have to talk about them: construction out here, more agricultural workers out here.

The second thing is, I would always provide a sunset clause. There would always be a sunset clause in any temporary foreign worker program. I'm not going to do this so that I penalize people and they go underground; I'm not stupid—I'm almost 66, but I'm not stupid. That would create a negative incentive. Everyone would become undocumented. They'd disappear, as they do in Toronto. What I would do is have a conversion path for them to become permanent residents in this country, so that if you continue to rely on temporary foreign workers to either prop up or maintain an industry, they have an avenue to permanent status, and you won't get the undocumented.

Finally, you keep the program small.

Thank you very much. I await your questions.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you very much. It was very informative indeed.

We'll go to some questioning by our committee members, for seven minutes for each member.

Who is first?

We have Mr. Telegdi.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To the witnesses, as you know, we have some exciting times going on in Parliament with this whole issue of Bill C-50. If you got part of a debate that you weren't particularly happy about, I apologize, but we will hear all the witnesses who came before that.

I have had a great number of problems with the whole issue of undocumented workers.

The reason is that when we changed the Immigration Act in 2002...I would love to say we did it because the minister came out with a vision of how things should go, but we essentially did it because the bureaucracy came up with a plan to cut the 800,000 people on the waiting list. What they essentially ended up doing is barring people this economy needed, such as was mentioned: construction workers, other folks. They could not come in as immigrants because they would not qualify under the new point system, which was set by regulations. If you didn't have the language, if you didn't have the education, you would not get in. The fact that we needed construction workers...well, that was too bad, and I think we saw a growth in the undocumented worker category. So there was a mismatch created by the Immigration Act to what the economy needed and what we got. That's a real concern.

The other concern I have, and maybe you can address it as well, is more and more our reliance on temporary foreign workers. We've had farm workers who have been coming to Canada for 30 years, and some even for 40 years. They come here without their families, and then they have to go back. They keep coming back. I have a worry that I see the number of temporary foreign workers rising. I'd rather have people who come to Canada and decide that this is the place they want to live, raise their families, and become Canadians. I don't think it's healthy to have a high population of single folks.

It reminds me of what happened when Canada built the railways. We brought in the Chinese, and then when the railway was finished, we wanted to send them back. We changed all that, where we had an open immigration program. Now I see an analogous situation. We want to bring in people to help build the tar sands or help build the Olympic facilities, and when we're finished with them we're going to send them back.

I wonder if Mr. Collacott and Mr. DeVoretz could respond to those points.

1:55 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute

Martin Collacott

I will.

You raised a number of interesting points, Mr. Telegdi. I'll start with the last one and work back, because I remember it most clearly.

The Chinese labourers who built the railways came in as unskilled workers, and when the railway was finished, the thinking was that we didn't really require them any longer. The Chinese who are coming in today are mostly skilled immigrants and their families, so we're really dealing with a very different situation. I'm glad we've moved on, to not having any racial barriers. My wife is an immigrant from Asia, as I think I mentioned last time I appeared before this committee, so I'm all in favour of an open immigration program. But there is a difference there.

Also, on the question of construction workers, yes, we are very short of construction workers. In B.C., in particular, we have a deadline to meet in terms of the Olympics, so we have to get that done. However, construction is a cyclical industry, although we may keep building in B.C. for some time, and the tar sands in Alberta are a pretty long-term issue, both technically and for construction. We have to be very careful not to bring in so many people that we discourage Canadians—and by “Canadians”, I don't just mean citizens but landed immigrants, now called permanent residents. They're here, and we have to do the best we can by them.

If you bring in very large numbers, it's great for the employers, but you will push down wages, which has happened. You will discourage Canadians from getting training and you will basically leave people on unemployment; you will bring in other people and keep Canadians out of the job market.

So you really have to look carefully at how you're doing that. You can't have the kind of unlimited situation you have now.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Telegdi.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I'm waiting for Mr. DeVoretz to comment.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Okay.

1:55 p.m.

Prof. Don DeVoretz

I'll be brief, Mr. Chairman.

My sunset clause that I mentioned at the end was to address what you just said about using the temporary foreign worker program as an ever-expanding crutch for industries.

There are many anecdotal and real illustrations in the agricultural sector where technological change has been made to substitute for the crutch of temporary foreign workers, or their absence.

So if you put a sunset clause in, it certainly will give knowledge to the employers that they can't use this program indefinitely, whether for fruit pickers here or the wine industry on the escarpment. But more importantly, the sunset clause will force the bureaucrats, who were mentioned earlier, to think of alternative programs than the temporary foreign worker program.