Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 31st, 2008

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I want to say one thing, just in closing.

This BlackBerry, one of the great Canadian success stories, was developed by Mr. Mike Lazaridis from Waterloo, who came to Canada in the mid-sixties as a Greek refugee from Turkey. His father was an apprentice tradesperson. If that person tried to get into this country today, he could not. This company employs something like 6,000 Canadians, and it's going to employ many more.

I think this is the kind of stuff we have to keep in mind, because if I look around today in my community, 95% of the people who came as immigrants would never be allowed in today. That includes Frank Stronach and Frank Hasenfratz, and the list goes on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Are there any closing comments?

Sir, you go right ahead.

[Prof. Don DeVoretz]

I just wanted to answer his second point, his major point, about the possible relationship between a mismatch in the permanent immigrant program and the rise of undocumented workers. I think that's a very good insight. I think the market—because I am an economist—will attempt to correct it.

If you have a points system that doesn't really reflect the demand for workers, you're going to have an unhappy world. You're going to have highly skilled Chinese coming here who can't practise their professions, because either they're not in demand or they lack credential recognition. And you're going to have employers who don't have enough workers, who will take a chance on hiring an undocumented worker to build a house, either here or in Toronto.

So this is the connection.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here, for being patient enough to stay. I'm sincerely sorry that you had to watch the somewhat pathetic spectacle earlier.

I would like to start by asking Ms. Kunin some questions. I understood that you were an economist at the Canada West Foundation, but I would like to know more about your organization. What does it do?

[Dr. Roslyn Kunin]

I am a labour economist and have been studying the economy of B.C. and Canada, particularly the labour market, for many decades. I have my own economic consulting business, and I'm facing shortages of labour. There might be a bias there.

Also, the Canada West Foundation is a 35-year-old non-partisan think tank...to build a strong and prosperous west in a vibrant, united Canada. We look at economic, political, and social issues.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You talked about how important you thought it was for Canada to have foreign workers in order to meet labour needs, among other things. Many people have appeared before us and raised concerns about the working conditions of those individuals, not only those who are undocumented, but even those who have documents, who may be exploited by ill-intentioned employers.

What measures do you suggest to the committee should be taken to prevent foreign workers who come here from being exploited?

[Dr. Roslyn Kunin]

It's very important that undocumented workers and any worker in Canada, any person in Canada, not be exploited. We have labour codes, we have laws, and we have to use these existing mechanisms to enforce....

But if we can get systems going where we work better through temporary or permanent immigrants, or through developing the Canadian labour force through training and so on—and we need that too. I predict that the labour shortages will be tight enough that we will need all of these mechanisms; it's not a case of either/or. Then we can avoid that. There are always going to be some unscrupulous law breakers; they are going to exist. But right now in B.C., the labour market is sufficiently tight that the limited evidence we can get for undocumented workers is that they are already in the industries that pay low wages, like restaurants and hotels.

They are already earning more than the minimum wage because the labour market is so tight that even undocumented workers can now set their own terms and conditions, and they are rather hard to exploit, because if you exploit them, there are other employers who would want them.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

We heard the comments of two other witnesses on the fact that we wonder—I do as well—whether the massive influx of temporary foreign workers is a long-term solution to the labour shortage.

[Dr. Roslyn Kunin]

Hopefully it is not a long-term solution. I look more to developing Canadians, to encouraging Canadians to train in the areas that we need, to having permanent immigrants, to recognizing the immigrants' credentials, and to try to better hone the people we invite into Canada to meet our labour market needs. I see that the labour market is so tight, and I see it as a long-term demographic cyclical trend, not as a long-term secular trend because of demographics, and not just as a temporary cycle. So I think we're going to have to look at all possible answers to meet our labour market needs.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Do you agree that we'll nevertheless have to proceed slowly, thoughtfully and carefully to ensure that doesn't become an easy solution and to encourage all stakeholders, government and entrepreneurs, to first make the effort of using already available labour?

[Dr. Roslyn Kunin]

I think most employers are already strongly in favour of using existing workers. They are only driven to temporary foreign workers or undocumented workers when there are no living, breathing bodies at almost any level, trained or untrained, who they can find to accept that work at all, at any price they can possibly afford to pay. The labour market here and in Alberta is so tight that in some places workers at entry-levels jobs in places like McDonald's and hotel cleaning and so on are being paid $20 an hour. They still can't fill all their positions. Some of these basic restaurants are cutting services to the point where they will operate only a drive-through because they do not have enough bodies of any calibre at up to $20 an hour to do their job. That is the shortage we're facing. I am saying it is going to continue right through the foreseeable future, for the next 20 years, as the demographic of no young people and lots of retirees happens.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Collacott, in your presentation, you emphasized the impact of the massive influx of foreign workers on wages. That makes a certain amount of sense in view of supply and demand. From the moment more workers are ready to work for lower wages, one may think that wages might fall. Your colleague says that isn't a problem. In any case, wages are currently rising because the market is very tight.

Where do you stand on that?

[Martin Collacott]

I'll just comment on what Roslyn Kunin said in that respect. We do have a very tight labour market right now. I am not quite so convinced it will always stay that tight. We're having a boom. The American economy is doing well. I think we could well have changes. We won't before the Olympics, but I'm not at all certain that we won't have downturns. So I have doubts about the endless progression. That does not usually happen in most economies indefinitely.

I'm not sure I answered your specific question.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

If I understand correctly, you're ultimately saying that that may be a good idea in the short term, but that it's not a long-term solution for the labour market in Canada.

[Martin Collacott]

No, and furthermore, the idea that we're going to be perennially short of workers I think is questionable. A hundred years ago a British demographer said we had 14 workers for every non-worker. Most people died when they were 65. It's now down to four. It will be down to 2.6 as the population ages. But he pointed out that productivity advances--if we concentrate on that--have outstripped this changing relationship, so that when we get down to 2.6, if we can keep up our productivity, we'll probably be quite well off.

So the assumptions that we'll be perennially short of workers or that the economy won't tank at some point I think have to be looked at carefully. It doesn't mean we don't bring in temporary foreign workers to keep things moving, but I think we have to be more cautious and look for possible downsides.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. St-Cyr and Mr. Collacott.

Ms. Chow, please.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

My question is for the professor. Do you know of other countries that give foreign workers visas for their trade? Rather than the visa dealing with an individual employer, if, for example, a carpenter is to come into the country, the visa is for that carpenter to work in the carpentry trade. That person could work in company A, B, C, or D, as long as it's in carpentry. Have you seen such a practice? Do you think it's a good idea? If we do so, it's letting markets dictate. Then you introduce the element of competition from different companies. So it would rise to the highest level of employee benefits. Sometimes if you have the worker lock into one employer, it gets to the lowest common denominator. That would lead to what I've heard previous speakers talking about: cheap labour or a violation of labour rules and conducts, etc. Is that something you would support?

[Prof. Don DeVoretz]

You asked me whether I know of other countries, and then do I support. Yes, I know of other countries. You could look to Europe. Prior to the expansion of the EU, Polish workers were allowed into Germany under these conditions; that is, they had the right to convert their original visa to a secondary employment as long as it was in the same sector, the same general description. The Germans made sure this wasn't an indefinite procedure. They tied it very clearly to training, so the Polish workers had to be given training in the German sector. This was to get the goodwill of the Polish country as well as the Polish workers, but it was also very clever, because if you train them, there's an incentive for them to go back home.

The second thing, as I mentioned before, is there were always sunset clauses in these. You couldn't do this indefinitely for any one worker. I think it's worked in the German case, but it's very expensive to monitor.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Is it something you would support?

[Prof. Don DeVoretz]

Yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

The second question is about the experience class, which is being debated right now. It is only 20,000, only those who have skills, who have degrees, who speak English or French. So out of 120,000, perhaps only 20,000 of them would qualify. The rest of the 100,000 would have no chance of becoming permanent residents.

You suggested you want to give them a sense of hope, so that they can upgrade, so that they can bring their families over, so that they can establish bonds in Canada. Is it fair to punish those who have lower skill sets? We need their labour, but because their skills are not the degree types of skills, we do not allow them to apply, or even if they apply, they do not have enough points and therefore they cannot become landed immigrants and therefore they would not be able to bring their families to Canada. I don't see that as being fair.

How do you think we should restructure the experienced class so that they have a fair chance, just like the live-in caregiver? If you go to school, you apply, and likely you're going to qualify. Should the experience class mirror the experience we have had with the live-in caregiver program?

[Prof. Don DeVoretz]

I'll get to the bottom line. Generally, I'm in favour of the experience class, but with some conditions. If you look to the current plans for the experience class, there are linguistic requirements. There are requirements about employment success, in the sense of being employed over a period of time. There are questions of minimal requirements in terms of having some attachment to Canada. If you put those in place, I doubt you're going to get all 100,000 temporary foreign workers applying in the first place. I think it would be more like 30,000 or 40,000.

When I interview temporary foreign workers in the Niagara escarpment, most of them say they want to go home at the end of the year to visit their families. So the key is whether they can bring their families or not.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Of course.

[Prof. Don DeVoretz]

That program doesn't have just unskilled workers; it also has graduate students and students. Generally, I'm very much in favour of it.