Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 3rd, 2008

[Kenneth Zaifman]

I believe in corporate responsibility, just as I believe in community responsibility. There's a model, for example, in Manitoba under the provincial nominee program. Several communities had agreements under which they were responsible for selection. They brought in the immigrants, they were responsible to help them find employment, and they were responsible for providing schooling. It seemed to work; they've integrated.

There are a lot of these models out there. It's essentially the willingness to put all these different pieces into one place where we can assess their effectiveness.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Nina, do you have anything?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Does the organization keep statistics on reported abuses by immigration consultants?

[Kenneth Zaifman]

As a lawyer, we don't keep statistics. Clients and people from the community come to us and tell us that some people have come in, and they're having problems. Their applications are being refused. Anecdotally, we know; it's the same people, perhaps a small group, who commit the same mistakes, because they never say no. They say yes to everybody, and our immigration system, unfortunately, doesn't allow everyone to come. Basically it's anecdotal.

There is no mechanism right now to deal with those people, unless the Canada Border Services Agency takes on the initiative. They need to have the staff and the mechanism to go after these individuals.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What new or further consequences could or should be imposed on unscrupulous immigration consultants?

[Kenneth Zaifman]

Most people who operate in this area do it mainly for economic reasons. In other words, they're doing it because that's how they make their money. And that's why I think the coordinator approach has to involve Canadian Revenue Agency. The best way to deal with individuals who are operating in this area is to bring in the various government agencies that are responsible.

As I say, in my experience, most of them don't give you receipts, say, for immigration services; they mostly deal in cash; they mostly don't report their income. How would you deal with it? How do you shut them down? An audit from CRA, a visit from the CBSA subpoenaing their computers and their files goes a long way to sending a message to them that there is a new focus. That's how you deal....

There's a presumption of innocence; I'm not saying they're all doing things improperly. But until you actually go after them and investigate them, you'll never know.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What steps, if any, should be taken to encourage the victims to report these offences?

[Kenneth Zaifman]

The victims first have to be assured that the consequence of their coming to the federal agency is not going to be their imminent removal from Canada. That's a very important and effective tool that unscrupulous agents use, saying “If you complain, you will be removed.”

And I have to say that in my experience with the local authorities, at least in Manitoba they have been very good. They assess the problem and in many cases have been part of the solution of the problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Surely CSIC must be aware and have some kind of inventory of these people who are the unscrupulous types. If I went to a website, shouldn't I be able to come up with a group of these people whom CSIC have placed on a website to say that these are the unscrupulous ones who are operating out there? Is it fair to say that they should be doing that, trying to force these people out of business that way?

[Kenneth Zaifman]

Is it fair for them to have a list of individuals who are not licensed members and who are providing immigration services, without commenting on whether they're unscrupulous or not? I don't see—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, it's more in the realm of what immigration or CBSA should be doing, that kind of—

[Kenneth Zaifman]

Well, I think everyone has to do their part. I think lawyers have an obligation, when we find these kinds of agents, to do what we need to do to report them to the regulators. If CSIC has that obligation, then I think they should do it.

You have to shed the light of day on the operations of these people, because the sun, when it shines on their activities, will in effect put them out of business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes.

[Kenneth Zaifman]

You have to shine that light and you have to point it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's right, yes. We shouldn't be looking to you to do it, or anything, but there should be—

[Kenneth Zaifman]

Well, everyone has to do their part, but you have the tools. You have the resources and the legal power. What we have is the power of persuasion, the power of dealing with anecdotal evidence, and dealing with various ethnic groups. But at some point in time, the government and members of Parliament have to use the tools they have been given.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes.

I'm glad we put it on the agenda. I didn't expect to get so much activity on it. I figured that temporary foreign workers would be the big subject—which it is—but we're getting a fair amount of activity on this one, even over in Moose Jaw and Edmonton and in Vancouver. We've heard it as we go.

I think we have a lot of fodder to make some good recommendations on it.

[Kenneth Zaifman]

As I say, I haven't had a chance to read this report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I gave you a research paper that we've been doing.

[Kenneth Zaifman]

I understand. My experience is that these are very good, and I usually learn something new from them every time I read them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes.

[Kenneth Zaifman]

But I think, really, all the reports in the world are not going to replace the political will to do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, you're right.

[Kenneth Zaifman]

That is really what it boils down to, in my view.