Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 7th, 2008

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Well, zero would be acceptable. But we've been hearing horror stories. So I want to quantify the horror stories. Nobody is able to say that 3% of the employers or individuals are misusing and abusing the employees....

[Marie Carter]

I think probably the reason we're reluctant to give percentages is because there are no real statistics on this. Obviously, if you're doing something illegal....

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What would your guesstimate be?

[Marie Carter]

What is my guesstimate?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes. I just want to know how bad the problem is.

[Marie Carter]

I would say that as in most cases of social justice, we see people on both extremes. There is a small minority of exemplary employers, and they maybe make up 5% or so, who make sure they have colour TVs and wonderful working conditions. So you have that extreme. You have the extreme of people kept in very poor conditions, such as conditions we saw where people didn't have enough to eat. In the middle are a vast number of people who are just plain indifferent to the workers or who just see them as a piece of--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Sorry. I appreciate where you're coming from, but please give me a guesstimate, a sense of how big the problem is. Not one employee is--

[Marie Carter]

Can I tell you in numbers that we've dealt with personally? Of the 800--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Let me finish, please. Please let me finish. Not even an employee--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Mr. Karygiannis, if you're going to finish, you're not going to have time, so let's get an answer.

[Marie Carter]

I would just like to say that of the 800 Thai workers we've come into contact with, about 200 have been in a situation that was not very good. That's probably not representative of all temporary foreign worker programs in the agricultural industry, but we noticed that in this particular program it's extremely high.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So 25% of the employers are abusing the workers.

[Marie Carter]

Again, it may not even be the employer in this case. Sometimes the employer isn't even aware, because of the third-party contractors. This is the problem within the temporary low-skilled workers program.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

But aren't these people in the employer's hands when they're working?

[Marie Carter]

In the temporary low-skilled workers program, the workers are not necessarily directly in the hands of an employer because of the way some of the third-party contractors work. Gerry could explain more on that for you, actually.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Mr. McKeever is going to come in, but--

[Derry McKeever]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to make a quick comment.

First of all, one of the big headline stories in Leamington over the last year and a half or so was the fact that two migrant workers under the seasonal agricultural worker program were sent home and repatriated because of the music in the greenhouse. They didn't like the rock and roll that was playing, and the employer sent them home immediately because they complained.

Secondly, I want to say that one of the advisors to the Ontario Liberal government around tender fruit had workers working on his farm for 29 years. One of them, who was applying pesticides for 29 years without any type of safety equipment, developed brain cancer. Well, this very generous Liberal advisor decided that it was in his best interest to send that worker back to Jamaica, where there was no treatment.

If you call that fair treatment of migrant workers, I'm going to tell you that the Liberals have blinders on and are not looking at what is going on with migrant workers. I'm sorry to be a little bit biased about this, but we can't take it any more. There's got to be somebody who says that it's not statistics but people getting hurt on the farm; it's people who are injured and sick and who are repatriated when they have an injury and who can't come back into the program. It makes me angry to be dissuaded by statistics, when we know for a fact that people are hurt and injured and sick and are sent back because of those illnesses, and they have had no recourse.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Thank you very much, Mr. McKeever. We also had an NDP government in the province of Ontario in the timeframe you were referring to, and many Conservative governments. Thank you.

Your time has run out. Please put on your headsets and select channel 1. We're not going to start until everybody is ready.

Go ahead, Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you all for coming here and for your presentations. I think it is important for us to remind ourselves that we are dealing with human beings. Not only does this affect temporary workers and undocumented workers, it also touches everyone affected by the immigration process. As an MP, I see it when people come to my office to ask for assistance. We are dealing with human beings, but the bureaucracy tends to overlook this fact. At times, this put us in rather ridiculous positions. Recently, we were forced to do battle with the minister's office to secure a visa for a woman who wanted to bring her husband's body back to Canada. When we deal with situations as sad as this, we can only conclude that the system is not working properly and that something is wrong somewhere.

Having said that, to the critics who maintain these problems are minor and that horror stories are isolated incidents, I would say that is it important to document these cases as much as possible. Earlier, I asked Ms. McLaughlin a few questions pertaining to this matter.

As for the incident related by Mr. McKeever or Mr. Cadotte involving the death of two workers who were originally from Thailand, and regarding the serious housing problems, I am curious if charges were laid in connection with these obvious cases of negligence? Did an impartial tribunal find that these workers were in fact exploited? Do we have any proof that they were exploited?

[Derry McKeever]

Thank you very much for the question.

When there were two workers who died under very mysterious circumstances, we felt, as members of a community, that there was some probability of a relationship between the work they were doing and their deaths, although we have, at this point, found that there has been no clear attribution of the cause of death, and we're still waiting for forensic reports--over a year waiting for forensic reports.

I will tell you that it caused us a great deal of stress in our community--and our friends here will attribute my comments to the community in general--when we knew that those workers who came here had nothing and could not even afford the repatriation of the bodies. Even though they were cremated, the employer would not assist with the repatriation of the bodies to the families.

There have been no criminal charges laid yet. Because the deaths occurred off the workplace, there is no WSIB claim that I know of yet. I have been in contact with the police; there has been no cause of death issued. I'm still waiting for that.

I have also been in contact with the municipality in regard to the regulations surrounding the home of the workers. The home itself was in fair condition, I would say, but to my amazement there are no regulations municipally, provincially, or federally regarding a place of residence for migrant workers. They can sleep wherever they want--on the street or wherever.

So to answer your question, there has been no result yet; we're still working on that. We are volunteers and have very little money.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

That is a very good, very interesting explanation. I encourage all agencies involved with workers to properly document all cases of abuse that might occur. All the better if there are court rulings, since there are people, Mr. Karygiannis being one of them, who tend to trivialize this situation.

We must be in a position to tell these workers that their experiences are not merely anecdotal. Major problems have been identified with these programs, given the inappropriate authority the employer has over his employee.

You also broached the issue of regulations. When foreign workers come to Canada to work, as a rule, most of the resources they require and most of the laws governing work, education, training, workplace safety and access to schools come under provincial government jurisdiction.

Would it not be more logical if all aspects of the foreign worker program were to come under provincial jurisdiction, with the exception perhaps of national security and health, areas that are traditionally the domain of the federal government? Shouldn't full responsibility be transferred to the provinces which are in a better position to ensure the protection of this foreign worker who has obtained a visa and to ensure as well that labour, health and workplace safety standards are being met? Would this not make for a more efficient system?

[Derry McKeever]

While I fully agree with your comments about health and safety and other issues, I will tell you what our experience has been. Our experience has been the opposite. When we have had problems with labour standards, we have called the province. The province says it's a federal jurisdiction. When we call the feds, they tell us it's a provincial jurisdiction. So we're sent in circles to try to find enforcement of--

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Precisely. The problem stems from the fact that the worker obtains his visa from the federal government. The worker is selected by the federal government. Therefore, as far as the provinces are concerned, the person comes under federal jurisdiction. However, from the moment he becomes a worker, he also becomes the provinces' responsibility.

To my mind, if we determine that the province is responsible for the worker, then we could avoid a situation where both sides pass the buck. The province is already responsible for three-quarters of everything. At least it should be given an opportunity to assume full responsibility.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

A very quick response. We're way over time on this one.

[Derry McKeever]

Yes, I agree with you 100%. We have asked for a workers' bill of rights, and hopefully when a bill of rights comes forward that ensures labour standards, safety, and other issues—housing, and so on—workers who are coming to this country, who are needed to sustain this economy, will be treated fairly.