Evidence of meeting #24 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi
Thank you very much.
Are there any further questions?
Monsieur Carrier.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
I would like to focus on something my colleague said. We are from Quebec where labour laws are soundly administered by the Quebec government. Labour laws come under provincial jurisdiction. The committee began its round of hearings in Vancouver and I am anxious to see if we will encounter the same problems in Quebec. I would be surprised if that were the case.
What recommendation would you like to make to the federal government, to the federal Department of Citizenship and Immigration, with respect to the issuing of a temporary work permit? Should each province be required to enforce labour laws? Should the department at the very least routinely inspect the conditions in which these individuals work? Workers may not necessarily know to whom they should address a complaint. At the very least, the government could supply them with a telephone number. For the benefit of the committee, can you tell me what CIC needs to improve upon when it comes to issuing a work permit?
3 p.m.
Director, Office of Systemic Justice, Federation of Sisters of St. Joseph of Canada
I would suggest that if it's going to be a federal program, there really needs to be an advocacy office that's connected with the program that runs separately from CIC. But if it's a federal program, there needs to be a federal advocacy office with a well-publicized phone line so that as workers come into the country, they become aware of their human rights, of their labour rights, and that it's very clear to them that they have a number, they have a place to go to where they can report abuses. For instance, a worker who is put in an illegal situation as soon as they get in the country should know that that should not be happening and that they have an avenue they can reach out to.
3 p.m.
Specialist, Migrant Workers Ministry, Diocese of London
I would agree wholeheartedly with Ms. Wilson. I really believe that until workers have a way of reporting abuses that doesn't end up in retaliation against them, the threat of repatriation really does keep a lot of people quiet.
Also, for groups like ourselves, it's all very well to say we should be doing legal action or these types of things, but to try to even help a worker who would like to come forward on a temporary residency permit...we can't do it without endangering the worker himself or herself. We end up being put in situations where in order to help the workers we put them at greater risk. So it makes it very difficult to address situations even from a very humane and pastoral level, because we are always in the situation where, especially with illegal workers, to even get them health care, how do you do that without putting them at risk of being deported?
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi
Thank you very much. It's something we've heard about right across the country in terms of the indentured nature of the job of the temporary foreign worker, be it that or be it the nanny program. Obviously we need advocacy, but we also need inspections. Monsieur St-Cyr was quite correct that a lot of this is now falling to the provinces, so there's a mixed jurisdiction, but we have to make sure it doesn't fall through the cracks.
As a point of interest, in the last 30 years in the province of Ontario, we've had, essentially, 15 years of Conservative rule, about seven years of NDP rule, and about the same number of Liberal governments—because as you know, there was a coalition government there for a couple of years between the NDP and the Liberals. So this really shouldn't be a partisan issue. This should be an issue that all of us take seriously, because it's important that we deal with the problem.
I thank the panel. We're going to take a break for a couple of minutes, and then we're going to reconstitute our last panel of the afternoon.
Thank you very much for all your travel and presentations.
3:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi
We're going to start with our last panel.
I was going to ask Ms. Bardish if she could get hold of the restaurateur who's supposed to be here as a witness for the restaurant association.
We're going to start off by hearing from F.A.R.M.S., including Canadian Agricultural Travel, and Susan Williams and Paula Goncalves. When we have a delegation, we like to keep their presentation to about seven minutes all told. Since you all represent the same delegation, could the two of you keep it to seven minutes.
And then we have Ken Sy, who is from another group.
Go ahead, whoever wants to start.
3:10 p.m.
Susan Williams General Manager, F.A.R.M.S. (Foreign Agricultural Resource Management Services)
I expect you have been given my handout. I'm not going to go through it, obviously, because the seven minutes won't warrant it. I'm going to go quickly through the first pages, a brief history of F.A.R.M.S.
As the document indicates, the federal government did the administrative work for the foreign agricultural seasonal workers program up until 1966. At that time, when 264 workers came into the country.... We went forward until 1987, and then the federal government said there was no more funding for the program, so the program was privatized and the farmers within Ontario headed up an administrative office.
In the handout that I gave you, there is a brief summary of the stakeholders and of F.A.R.M.S. itself—the office I am with—and the administrative work we take care of between the farmers, Service Canada, foreign governments, and local liaison people.
The foreign governments, the seasonal workers, as well as the Canadian government—Service Canada, and the temporary foreign worker program, whatever they call themselves today—all play a role in achieving best practices in this program.
The ongoing involvement, support, and commitment of the government continues the success of the seasonal agricultural workers program.
F.A.R.M.S. maintains a level playing field in all aspects of the program. In terms of information flow, we're self-monitoring and can obviously report on issues of non-compliance, data integrity, etc., to Service Canada.
Repeat workers make up 80% of the program, year after year. Obviously, the employers have put a lot of time and effort into training workers, so 80% of these repeat workers are valuable to the employers. They're a reliable source of low-skilled labour for the horticultural and tobacco sectors, in the absence of available local labour—and this has obviously become more and more apparent as the years have gone by. In return, the migrant worker receives employment income to better his quality of life and that of his family.
As for annual housing inspections, every employer must have their housing, their bunkhouses—if you want to use that term—inspected annually by the Ministry of Health.
There is the placement of foreign government representatives locally for each of the five countries in the program. They each have a local office and are reachable 24/7. They are here, obviously, to represent their workers.
Direct negotiation between the industry, foreign governments, and airlines is a huge best practice that we do on an ongoing basis.
Annual regional and national review meetings, specifically for improving the program, both for the employers and the employees, are a huge best practice. We get together every year to review the program.
We provide approximately 15,500 families abroad a direct source for a better quality of life, which they would not otherwise have.
I'll just turn it over to Paula Goncalves, and she'll speak briefly on the travel aspect.
3:15 p.m.
Paula Goncalves Administrative Manager, F.A.R.M.S. (Foreign Agricultural Resource Management Services)
Hello, there.
CanAg Travel is actually Canadian Agriculture Travel, and we work closely with the foreign governments and Canadian Farm Business Advisory Services as well. We are, kind of, the end result of everything that takes place on the farms administration part in terms of programming and getting everyone organized. We are basically the end result.
We book the airline seats and we coordinate with the employers to bring these workers from their homes. When they arrive in Ontario, we have people who meet them at the airport, go through Customs and Immigration and get all their documents set straight, and then we also put them on buses to outgoing places from Pearson. That's our main point of entry.
We also have a 24-hour help phone in case there are any issues with the worker, in which they need to be sent home because of an illness or an unfortunate death in the family. We have staff on call 24/7 to make arrangements for those workers to go home.
Basically, we work closely with farms, in that if we bring in 15,500 workers a year, we make sure we account for 15,500 workers to go home. If they don't go home, we have to report if they're here because of an illness or whatnot. We work closely with the governments to ensure that all workers are accounted for at the end of a year.
3:15 p.m.
Ken Sy Immigration Specialist, Chinese Community, Abtron Canada Inc.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members. Thank you for inviting me today.
My name is Ken Sy. I came to Canada 38 years ago. After graduating from university, I worked for a major bank in Toronto and started my own business in 1980. I've been in the import and export business to and from the Far East, and I have been wholesaling and retailing consumer products in Toronto for the last 20 years.
In 1986 I assisted eight individuals, so-called refugees or illegal aliens, to settle in Toronto. I befriended and kept in close contact with them. As of today, each of them is well established in Toronto or Vancouver. My seafood business in the past 12 years has enabled me to have a vast list of contacts of owners and workers in restaurants and Chinese supermarkets, the areas where most of the undocumented workers work.
There are common themes about undocumented workers. Undocumented workers take jobs from Canadians. That's not true. We all know that undocumented workers do jobs in Canada that no Canadian is willing or able to fill. They either work at low wages and poor working conditions or at construction sites.
Undocumented workers drain the welfare system. That's not true. The feds and the provinces have been downloading social services wherever possible to the cities, and they barely have enough money to assist the neediest. Besides, the undocumented worker would not be eligible for federal and provincial benefits.
Undocumented workers do not pay taxes. That's not true either. While they may not pay income tax, they do pay GST and PST on goods and services. For example, if they own a home, they also pay property tax and then transfer tax.
Enforcement can stop undocumented migration, and granting amnesty to undocumented workers is not fair to those who apply under regular channels. It also further encourages more illegal immigrants to come to Canada. Well, depending on your point of view, this kind of thinking is argumentative. Do we need those workers? Yes, we do. Why bother to send them home?
There's no significant change or process in how law enforcement has been decreasing undocumented migrations. Undocumented workers are driven by economic opportunities. They would not be qualified under current immigration programs, which favour people with professional designations. Changes in immigration and refugee protection acts and their enforcement by Canadian border security have already minimized these problems.
People like to use excuses to distort the truth in ways to feed their purpose, and the bureaucrats prefer to use the use words “fairness” and “privilege” to deflect criticism. We are a nation of immigrants. Immigrants, both documented and undocumented, are hard working. They pay taxes, form strong communities, raise families here, and propel the economic engines and boom. Please ask yourself this. For the past 10 years in Ontario, who has kept the housing boom afloat? The undocumented construction workers.
I have a very simple and workable solution for the committee members to consider: let them stay by granting them a five-year working permit, to be applied for within Canada, subject to being interviewed and passing an oral English test, and to qualify for the renewal of the working permit after the five-year period or applying for landed immigrant status, and they have to pay taxes.
It's time to step back, take a deep breath, and think about how you'd feel if you were in this position. Do they deserve some kind of respect and to be treated in a more humanitarian and compassionate way? Yes, they do.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
3:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi
Thank you very much for your presentation.
I'm now going to go to Mr. Karygiannis for five minutes.
Mr. Karygiannis.
3:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Sy, you yourself come from the large Chinese community, and I'm not sure if we're going to have another opportunity to ask this of an individual such as yourself who has worked in the immigration field for a long time. There are proposed changes that are coming, especially Bill C-50, and I was wondering if you'd care to comment on that, please. How do the people of the Chinese community look at the bill and the changes it's bringing forth.
3:20 p.m.
Immigration Specialist, Chinese Community, Abtron Canada Inc.
Number one, I would say that almost all the Chinese are against Bill C-50. They worry that the minister will have so much power. As far as they are concerned....
Take family sponsorship, for example. On average you have to wait three to five years to get the thing done. As well, for the skilled workers program, or if you apply independently from Beijing, you have to wait at least three to four years.
The biggest problem for them is the family reunion. That's the biggest problem for the Chinese community. They worry that the minister may defer the application and so forth.
3:20 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for joining us.
For the past week now, we have been consulting with people on the topic of temporary workers and questions about sound labour practices, foreign worker protection and exploitation come up time and time again.
If you were here this morning, you may recall that I inquired about possible ways of better protecting foreign workers who come here and work to build this country while allowing companies to make profits and, as they say, protect their investment. I would like to hear your views on this matter.
When a foreign worker arrives in this country, he is assigned to work for a particular company. He cannot decide to go and work for another company, at at least it is very difficult for him to do that. Many groups representing immigrants have encouraged committee members to do away with this restriction and allow workers to change employers if they find their working conditions unsatisfactory.
Conversely, many employers have told us that they must invest money to bring foreign workers to Canada. That money goes to pay a recruiting agency or to cover travel costs. If a worker decides to change employers a few weeks after arriving in the country, the company is then unable to maximize the return on its investment.
Is there some kind of middle ground possible, a solution where an employee could easily change jobs if he is having problems with his employer but where, in such instances, the new employer would cover the costs incurred by the first employer, to avoid any loss? Do you think that this could be one interesting way of protecting workers and a company's profit margin at the same time? Do you feel the committee should put forward this recommendation?
3:25 p.m.
Immigration Specialist, Chinese Community, Abtron Canada Inc.
As I suggested, basically, at the end of the day, you have to give the workers a future, something to look for. Assuming they work for five years, if they know they can apply as landed immigrants, that would be different. Now they are only under the working permit. They don't know what will happen a year or two down the road. That's why you give employers a chance to abuse the system too. If they knew that definitely, after three or five years, they could apply as landed immigrants, that would be a different story.
So that would be number one: if they abide by all the laws, they can apply as landed immigrants. Number two, regarding changing employers or whatever, that's not a big issue at all. I've come across a few Chinese who are undocumented workers. If they knew....
Well, I'll put it this way: I'm sorry to say that those guys abuse the system. I say that because they know they'll never be able to get permanent resident status. The only way is for them to go through a phony marriage. After you apply for marriage, you can get a working permit and can start working--start working properly, as in you don't need to be paid cash and so forth. They can apply for a social insurance number, work for regular pay, or whatever.
Basically, at the end of the day, for all of those undocumented workers or foreign workers, you have to give them a future, something to look for.
3:25 p.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
You have provided a much broader answer that I was expecting to get, but I can appreciate the sheer scope of the problem. The committee will need to make some recommendations.
Turning now to the representatives of F.A.R.M.S., I would like to know what they think about the suggestion regarding worker mobility.
3:25 p.m.
General Manager, F.A.R.M.S. (Foreign Agricultural Resource Management Services)
With respect to transfers, we do transfer around 2,500 workers a year without a problem. The first employer who brings a worker here pays for the inbound flight. The employer who takes the worker on the second employment contract sends the worker home. It is documented. We have to have an LMO through Service Canada in order to do that, and we know where the worker is. If you were to just allow workers to come in and transfer or go wherever they wanted to go, you wouldn't know where anybody was ever.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
I have just a couple of quick questions for Mr. Sy.
Would you agree with me that family reunification sponsorships take far too long in terms of the length of time it takes to get somebody here?
3:30 p.m.
Immigration Specialist, Chinese Community, Abtron Canada Inc.
Yes, I totally agree with you.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
And would you agree that we need to find a way to make it quicker and more efficient?
3:30 p.m.
Immigration Specialist, Chinese Community, Abtron Canada Inc.
Yes, certainly. May I add something? I don't know how the government says it needs more money and also that it needs more manpower. Bear in mind that you charge the people who are going to be landed with what we call a landing fee. If you have 250,000 immigrants, every year you multiply $500 on average and that will give you $100-something million. I don't see why you cannot hire more local people, more officers overseas to expedite the whole process.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
The point of the matter is it's taking too long. Would you agree with that?