Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 8th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll call the meeting to order.

I want to welcome all of you again as we continue our cross-country meetings tour that we've been on now for about a week and a half. Today we're in the great riding of Scarborough—Agincourt, and that's the riding of my colleague Mr. Karygiannis here. I want to thank him, on behalf of the committee, for the invitation to be here today.

As you're aware, we're the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. We've been mandated to hold meetings right across the country on three different topics: temporary and undocumented workers, Iraqi refugees, and the immigration consultants issue.

We're going to be meeting in all the provinces, finishing up in mid-April sometime in St. John's, Newfoundland. We've met in Vancouver, Saskatchewan, Edmonton, Manitoba, Waterloo, and now we're here in Toronto for a couple of days. We will move on to Montreal, Quebec City, Fredericton, Halifax, and St. John's. So we have quite a schedule for ourselves.

At the end of it all, we will have met with about 52 panels. We have our officials with us, who will, in the final analysis, when it's all over, write a report to make recommendations to government about what we're hearing here today and what we hear as we go.

I want to welcome you as panellists here.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If I may, sir, I'd like to welcome everybody to the great riding of Scarborough—Agincourt, and especially my colleagues from out west--and I'm talking about west Toronto or out west in Vancouver--and the great province of Quebec. I certainly thank you and the clerk and the rest of the committee members for coming to Scarborough—Agincourt. It means a lot to the people of Scarborough—Agincourt as well as a lot to me personally.

Having said that, I might have to, on a personal matter, slip out for about 10 to 15 minutes this morning, and I mean no disrespect to the panel. Again, welcome to Scarborough—Agincourt.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Karygiannis. It's a pleasure for us to be here.

I want to welcome the witnesses. We will have an hour for this group of witnesses.

Representing the Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac Student Union of Canada is Alda Benjamen, educational coordinator and member of the board. From the Assyrian Society of Canada is Paul Baba, member. As an individual--no, Mr. Adelman is not here. Representing the Welfare Committee for the Assyrian Community in Canada is Mirza Shmoil, who is chairman and executive director; and from the Mandaean Human Rights Group, we have Nabil Farhan.

Welcome to all of you.

I think you know how the committee operates, Mr. Shmoil. I understand you're going to be going a little bit over the seven minutes, but we're here to accommodate you in whatever way we can. Feel free to go over a bit, and also, relax. We're interested in what you have to say. We just want to interact a little bit after you make your presentations and talk a little bit about your problems and what have you. I want it to be as unofficial and laid back as it possibly can, because I feel that's the best way to get good dialogue going between us. Relax and make your presentations, please.

I guess we'll start with Alda.

[Alda Benjamen, Educational coordinator, Member of the board, Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac Student Union of Canada]

Good morning, honourable members of Parliament.

My name is Alda Benjamen, and I'm a representative of the Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac Student Union of Canada, or ACSSU of Canada. Our organization was founded in 1999, and it has since established branches in most Canadian universities, focusing on assisting immigrant students to integrate into the Canadian system and enhance their level of education. I am a byproduct of this union. With their support, I obtained a Bachelor of Science, become an intermediate public school teacher, and I have now returned to graduate school in near and middle eastern civilization studies at the University of Toronto.

I thank you for taking this opportunity to discuss the issue of Iraq refugees. I will attempt to share information and statistics from various human rights supports, ACSSU's communications through grassroots civil society organizations in Iraq, and my personal trip to Iraq in the summer of 2007, where I conducted research on civil society organizations. My focus will be on the Assyrians, who are also known as Chaldeans and Syriacs, and are herein referred to as ChaldoAssyrians.

ChaldoAssyrians are the indigenous people of Iraq and speak Neo-Aramaic, or Syriac, the language spoken by Jesus Christ. They embraced Christianity in the first century and have numerous monasteries in Iraq dating back to the fourth and seventh centuries. They played a critical role in building the Islamic civilization, especially during the Abbasid period, and they were heavily involved in the translation movement from Greek to Syriac to Arabic. They have endured numerous atrocities and genocides in the past, making them a minority in their indigenous lands and reducing their numbers.

In current times, and due to their ethnic and religious background, they have been severely targeted. Although they constitute 5% of Iraq's population, they make up 20% of the Iraqi refugees in neighbouring countries. One in three ChaldoAssyrians is a refugee, and the IDP figures in all of Iraq show a greater internal dislocation.

Why are they leaving?

The first reason is Islamic extremism. ChaldoAssyrians in the Dora district of Baghdad, for example, in March and April of 2007, were given these options: convert to Islam; pay Jiza, which is a non-Muslim tax; give a daughter or sister in marriage to a Muslim; leave; or die. In a matter of months the neighbourhood that was home to 20,000 ChaldoAssyrian families was completely ethnically cleansed. Other stories include the killing of clergy, bombing of churches, abductions, beheadings, literal crucifixions, and rapes of ChaldoAssyrian women.

The second reason is discriminatory policies in the Kurdish Democratic Party. The United States Department of State's Annual Report on International Religious Freedom for 2006 alleges that the Kurdish regional government continues to engage in discriminatory behaviour against religious minorities. Minorities living in the areas of north Mosul such as Yazidis and Christians asserted that the KRG encroached on their property, eventually building Kurdish settlements on the confiscated land, further arresting minorities without due process, denying service to some villages, and preventing the employment of non-KDP or PUK party members.

The Iraq Sustainable Democracy Project conducted a field mission with the Iraqi refugees in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon in March 2007. Here are a few of their responses: “There are signs everywhere, and reminders brought to our doors--even delivered with bullets and/or blood--stating that Iraq is not for Christians any longer.” Another person said: “I tried to go to the north, to the Nineveh Plains or the Kurdistan Region in Iraq. I could not get a job, I had to join the Kurdish Democratic Party to work.” And yet a third person: “The north would be nice, but there is nothing there for us, nothing developed to survive there. If it was developed to allow us to live, I would stay.”

With respect to the situation of students who are part of the ChaldoAssyrian Student and Youth Union of Iraq, during interviews with various branches of the ChaldoAssyrian Student and Youth Union, they disclosed that their members faced difficulty in attending schools since they have no security measures in their towns and schools. Due to this, many decide to leave the country. For example, I interviewed a student from Baghdeda/Qaraqosh, a Christian town located in the Nineveh Plains, near Mosul. This young man described the day that he, along with seven other ChaldoAssyrian students, were abducted on their way to school. Their parents had to pay heavy ransoms. Until this day, no security official has recorded the incident or interviewed them--until this day.

On Canada's role in Iraq, Canada needs to make sure that Iraq continues to be an ethno-religiously diverse and multicultural country. The ChaldoAssyrian Christians, along with other minorities, are an integral part of Iraq and will enable it to be a pluralistic society rather than governed by national or religious fundamentalists.

Temporary assistance includes a careful examination of the situation of Iraqi refugees in which hasty and priority access is to be afforded to the most vulnerable refugees, who include, inter alia, widows and those who have been tortured, abducted, and raped.

Effective Canadian assistance, preventive measures. In 2003 the Government of Canada committed $3 million in the effort to assist Iraq in its reconstruction. This assistance emphasized three parts, which if used effectively and extended to the real minorities of the country, can prevent ethnic and religious cleansing and decrease the refugee problem.

The first objective Canada committed to was helping Iraq rebuild its social and economic base. We propose that the Canadian government extend this objective to the Nineveh Plains as well.

The Nineveh Plains is an area in the Nineveh governorate that is famous for Mosul city. The Nineveh Plains is the ancient homeland of ChaldoAssyrians and home to Iraq's real minorities, such as the Yezidis and the Shabaks. According to the Assyrian Society, a charitable organization in Iraq, approximately 15,000 internally displaced ChaldoAssyrian families are currently residing there. Using the five per family average, the total will be 75,000 people. Since this area has always been home to minorities, the previous Baath government did not care to invest much in it, a situation that is currently repeating itself.

Therefore, the Nineveh Plains already lack the needed infrastructure to sustain its existing population, let alone take thousands of IDP families. At the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2007, the Nineveh Center for Research and Development, a civil society organization in the Nineveh Plains, conducted a survey of the IDPs in this region.

Due to the lack of basic needs, 71% of the IDPs stated that their current situation encouraged them to become refugees outside of Iraq, while 75% stated that they know family and friends who would move to the Nineveh Plains if housing or work were available.

Canadian funding should be directed to an NGO or a grassroots organization such as the Assyrian Aid Society and Babylon Charitable Society, located conveniently in the Nineveh Plains, to provide food, create jobs, build basic infrastructure, the basic necessities of life.

Canada's second commitment to Iraq is to help Iraq develop effective governance and security structures, ensure respect for human rights and the rule of law, and promote gender equality. We also propose the implementation of this objective in the Nineveh Plains. This can be achieved by training security officials from among the inhabitants of the Nineveh Plains, who are willing and ready. This will ensure the physical security of these minorities indiscriminately. This will avoid the politically motivated security forces currently in the Nineveh Plains, which are responsible for various human rights violations and the overall instability and insecurity of the region.

Canada's third commitment—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Could I slow you down a little bit for our translators. Thank you.

Don't hurry. We're trying to give you as much time as we can. If we have to go over a little bit, that's fine.

[Alda Benjamen]

Sure. I'm trying to stay within the seven minutes.

Canada's third commitment is to promote regional democratic development. We propose the promotion of regional democratic development in establishing local administration in the Nineveh Plains to ensure fair representation and direct authority of the real minorities in managing local council, the police force, and local courts according to article 125 of the Iraqi constitution; and to allow internally displaced ChaldoAssyrian Christians and other persecuted minorities displaced from central and south Iraq and, externally, in Syria and Jordan to resettle in their indigenous lands and escape the violence, circumventing the refugee crisis in neighbouring countries such as Syria and Jordan.

We Canadians are known for our support of human rights, respect for diversity, and promotion of multiculturalism. We hope our government is employing these basic Canadian values in their assistance mission and commitment to rebuilding Iraq and addressing the refugee problem.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you very much, Alda.

Mr. Baba.

[Paul Baba, Member, Assyrian Society of Canada]

Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, thank you for having me here today.

On behalf of the Assyrian Society of Canada, I would like to commend Canada for its efforts to aid Iraqi refugees. This work is greatly appreciated and a shining example of Canada's positive contributions on the global stage. As Canadians, we are fortunate to have a democratic country that makes an effort to solicit input from its citizens on matters such as this.

To begin, it is helpful to resolve an important issue that, if left unresolved, can sometimes lead to confusion. As a byproduct of a rich and ancient heritage, the Assyrians have come to be identified by many names over the years. Various names such as Chaldeans, ChaldoAssyrians or Syriacs all refer to the same indivisible people, hereafter referred to as ChaldoAssyrians. Accordingly, these different names should not be allowed to act as an impediment to the understanding and resolution of the situation of ChaldoAssyrians.

Furthermore, it may also be noticed that many refer to ChaldoAssyrians in Iraq as simply Iraqi Christians. This is unfortunate, as that term does not take into account the ethic identity of the ChaldoAssyrians and only emphasizes their religious affiliation, despite the fact that 95% of Christians in Iraq are actually of ChaldoAssyrian ethnicity. ChaldoAssyrians possess a different language, ethnicity, culture, and heritage from those of the neighbouring Arab or Kurdish populations.

Since the fall of the previous government, the ChaldoAssyrian population in Iraq has decreased by approximately 20% to 25%. This information is based on U.S. Department of State reports that upwards of 200,000 have fled as non-Muslim minorities. Department of State also indicates in its religion freedoms report that the population in 2003 was approximately one million. Such a rapid decline in population will result in an Iraq devoid of any meaningful ChaldoAssyrian population and can only be described as ethno-religious cleansing.

It is important to note the ChaldoAssyrians and other minorities have endured and persevered through previous phases of persecutions, wars, and sanctions. To note that these same people are now fleeing, whether becoming refugees or internally displaced persons, is a testimony to the incredible pressures they face over and above the hardships faced by the Iraqis.

Despite these pressures, the ChaldoAssyrian population in Iraq still significantly outweighs the number of refugees in surrounding countries. Without appropriate and immediate intervention, a full-scale exodus could ensue. The Assyrian Society of Canada therefore recommends that Canada prioritize preventing ChaldoAssyrians from becoming refugees through aid that would maintain the ChaldoAssyrian IDPs in Iraq.

Most of the ChaldoAssyrian IDPs first opt to head north when fleeing major cities. This is a reflection of the reality that most ChaldoAssyrian Christians originate from the north, particularly the Nineveh Plains. The Nineveh Centre for Research and Development, a local NGO and think tank located in the Nineveh Plains, used ration card registries and petrol station gas ration registries to enumerate the number of IDP families that arrived between January 1, 2006, and the end of September 2006--a period of nine months. They tabulated an influx of 3,859 families that were registered. This does not include a large number of families that did not register out of fear.

The Nineveh Plains, comprising the fertile lands that lay north, east, and southeast of Mosul, is singularly the largest destination point for Christian IDPs. While exact numbers are difficult to provide, even the refugees interviewed tell of their effort to head there first, and also to Dohuk and Irbil governorates.

In early 2005, the ISDP published its first needs assessment in the Nineveh Plains. At that time, approximately $236 million was estimated for the development needs of the region. The Nineveh Plains was neglected by Saddam due to the lack of support for minorities living there. The economic hardships from Saddam's wars further ensured the lack of development there. Since the fall of Saddam, neither Arab nor Kurdish authorities have been committed to ensuring equitable development and redress for the Nineveh Plains. It was unable to viably support its population base before the IDP influx. Now, with thousands of families arriving there, it is completely destitute.

It follows that the Assyrian Society of Canada strongly believes that focusing aid on IDPs in the Nineveh Plains can prevent the disproportionate number of ChaldoAssyrian refugees. This is not to say we are opposed to accepting Iraqi refugees in this great country. In fact, the Assyrian Society of Canada is thankful for all the efforts made to accept and accommodate refugees, especially those who are considered to be individuals at risk. We simply accept the fact that the most feasible and efficient method of providing assistance is to help prevent the creation of refugees in the first place.

Focus should be placed on securing basic needs such as homes, potable water, access to food, education, and health care. This targeted aid will not only prevent IDPs from becoming refugees but will represent an essential and long-overdue humanitarian response.

Short-term aid needed includes non-food item relief along with essential staple foods to ensure that basic nutritional requirements are met. Mid-term efforts could then focus on employment, infrastructure, and essential services such as health and education.

Canada has the opportunity to ensure that the road to a new Iraq is not paved with ethno-religious cleansing of the ChaldoAssyrians. This represents a chance to ensure that pluralism remains alive and well in Iraq through the critical intervention to aid ChaldoAssyrian IDPs in the Nineveh Plains. Modest efforts that can be implemented today will make a difference overnight.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you very much, Paul.

Mr. Shmoil.

[Mirza Shmoil, Chairman and Executive Director, Welfare Committee for the Assyrian Community in Canada]

My name is Mirza Shmoil. I'm a Christian Assyrian originally from Iraq, but a loyal and grateful Canadian citizen. Our family came to Canada in 1968, and there were few Assyrian families in Toronto at that time. Today our population has increased to approximately 25,000 to 30,000 souls, and the majority have settled in Toronto, in the suburbs, while smaller communities exist in British Columbia, Alberta, Winnipeg, and Quebec.

I was personally involved in the first committees for the establishment of social and religious institutions for our growing Assyrian community. I'm pleased to say that we now have a beautiful building for our social club and an equally nice building for our Assyrian church, which holds approximately 700 seats.

For the last 25 years, I've been managing our immigration and refugee affairs as the chairman and executive director. In 1989, we registered our foundation as a charitable non-profit organization called the Welfare Committee for the Assyrian Community in Canada. We are a sponsoring agreement holder, having an agreement with the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, which is renewable every two years. Our board of directors consists of five members.

With the removal of Saddam Hussein and the collapse of the Baath Party by the intervention of the American coalition forces who invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi population, the majority of the Iraqi people were relieved and hoped for a better and brighter future. However, there appeared groups of armed insurgents whose aim was to disrupt the newly formed Government of Iraq by murdering its new leaders as well as highly educated classes in the government. Not satisfied with this, these armed terrorist groups started targeting Christians working for the new government, as well as all those who were working for American and coalition enterprises in Iraq.

At the same time, there was a deep conflict between Shia and Sunni communities that affected the Christian communities very seriously throughout the country, in large cities such as Baghdad, the surrounding smaller communities, including the city of Dora, Mosul, Nineveh, Kirkuk, as well as the areas occupied by the Kurdish regional government. The result was that millions of Iraqis fled their country seeking asylum in the neighbouring countries of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.

Large-scale displacement of Iraqi civilians continued due to the ongoing violence, including direct raids, abductions, or killings in many parts of Iraq. The UNHCR estimates that some 2.2 million Iraqis are currently refugees abroad, and over 2.7 million are currently displaced inside Iraq. Among the refugees outside Iraq, it's estimated that at least one million are Christians of different denominations, Assyrians and other ethnic groups included.

It's reported that since 2003, about 33 Assyrian churches have been bombed. Priests and bishops have been kidnapped and tortured to death, and other Christian civilians have been beheaded or kidnapped for ransom money. Assyrian women are at great risk of being kidnapped and raped if they fail to obey the demands of the perpetrators of these savage crimes. Children have been scared to attend school for fear of being kidnapped by terrorists or criminal groups of fanatical Muslims.

It's also reported that the Mujahedeen, an armed Sunni group, along with the Omar Brigade and others, claimed uncontested control of different parts of Dora district, while threatening, abducting, looting, and killing residents with the aim of cleansing Christian Assyrians from Iraq, accused of being supporters of American and coalition forces, or because they are Christians--and the Assyrians happen to be the original residents of Iraq.

Christian Assyrians and other ethnic Christian groups do not have their own security to defend themselves against insurgent attacks, but merely depend upon Iraqi government sources for protection. Unfortunately, the government has no provision or ability to provide any protection to the Christian minority groups in the country. This is the main reason these unprotected Christian Assyrians have no alternative but to flee, leaving their homes to the mercy of fanatical armed groups, and seek asylum outside their own country.

The latest victims are of crimes that happened just within the last three weeks. First, a bishop was tortured and killed in the city of Nineveh, or Mosul, and just two days ago a Christian priest was murdered in front of his residence in Baghdad. No arrests for these crimes or for previous crimes have been made. It appears that the Iraqi government cannot protect its citizens.

The following are my recommendations:

With regard to Muslim Arab refugees outside their country, it is my sincere opinion that such refugees can be easily resettled in the neighbouring countries. If the Iraqi government forces and leaders are honest, then they should be all together with no discrimination between the religions. This is a better choice than the UN spending millions of dollars to keep the refugees in Syria and Jordan.

As regards the Assyrian and other Christian refugees outside Iraq, I feel strongly that they should be resettled in their own homeland in north Iraq, have their own self-rule, and be given the required security guaranteed by the United Nations as well as by the Iraqi government and Kurdish regional government.

The Assyrians and other Christians, being the indigenous people of Iraq, have been living in their own homeland for well over 6,000 years. I'm sure they'll be good neighbours to the Kurds as well as the Arabs in the country. Our preference for the resettlement of Assyrians and other Christian groups in the triangle area is self-rule under the name “Assyria”, following geographic borders of the state of Iraq with Turkey and Syria. In the north are the international borders of the state of Iraq with Turkey and Syria. On the east it includes the Nerwa and Rekan region down to the Greater Zab River. On the west is the Tigris River, and to the south it is the point where the Greater Zab meets with the Tigris River.

The Assyrian administration region, if provided autonomy and self-government as in Kurdistan to the north, will be economically viable through the existing industries, as well as trade with neighbouring Syria and Turkey and through investment and the return of perhaps one million Assyrian Christian refugees who are presently outside Iraq and those who are internally displaced within Iraq.

With regard to those Assyrians and other Christian refugees presently outside Iraq who have lost their homes in Iraq and who do not wish to return to their homeland, we would suggest that they be considered for resettlement to Canada or other western countries where they happen to have close relatives already.

For those refugees who wish to come and join their families and friends in Canada, we recommend that our organization, as it is prepared and willing, provide sponsorship to those who have relatives in this country over and above the present limit of 100 persons that we are allowed to sponsor a year, provided CIC considers sharing with us its responsibility based on JAS or a blended program similar to the programs granted by CIC to the Chinese, Karen and, more recently, Bhutan refugees.

In conclusion, I wish to convey my community's appreciation for inviting me to this meeting to discuss the Christians of Iraq and Christian Assyrian refugees. We are most grateful to the Government of Canada in helping us to sponsor and admit hundreds of displaced and desperate Assyrians and other Christian refugees to Canada, where they enjoy freedom, democracy, and a bright future for their children.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Shmoil, for your very good presentation.

Mr. Farhan.

[Nabil Farhan, Canadian Chapter Chair, Mandaean Human Rights Group]

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and honourable members of the committee.

I represent the Mandaean Human Rights Group. The Sabian Mandaean community of Iraq is a small ethnic religious minority, which is one of the oldest gnostic religions and is the only living one still surviving in the Middle East. This minority is ethnically distinct from its Arab neighbours and has its own language and culture. The religion is independent from all other monotheistic religions and follows the teaching of John the Baptist. These are peaceful, knowledge-loving people. This peaceful religion prohibits violence in any form.

In the past, the Mandaeans have managed to coexist among their neighbours despite suffering incidents of persecution and government-imposed discrimination. However, since 2003, the Mandaeans have become the target of a sustained and violent campaign by insurgents and militia extremists. Accounts of murders, rapes, kidnappings, forced conversions, and financial exploitation committed against hundreds of Mandaeans in the last five years necessitates an immediate investigation.

Mandaean women suffer the most persecution at the hands of extremist insurgents and militia, who consider them products of treasure. The escalating kidnappings and rapes of Mandaean women have gone unpunished. Many families, young girls, and even children have been subject to forced conversion. In an effort to destabilize the country, the insurgent groups have purposely singled out and persecuted the Iraqi religious minorities. The Sabian Mandaeans are small in number and are not protected constitutionally or socially within Iraq, despite the constitutional reforms under the transitional and current governments.

Since their religion prohibits self-defence, the Mandaeans do not carry weapons and will not reciprocate these attacks. Instead, they choose to stand behind the rule of law, which currently is not protecting them. Furthermore, the Mandaeans do not have a particular area inside Iraq to which they can relocate for safety. Out of 60,000 Mandaeans who lived in Iraq, more than 80%, unfortunately, have fled the country, leaving their homes and occupations. Currently there are more than 12,000 refugees in the neighbouring countries of Syria and Jordan alone.

The United Nations articles on the protection of indigenous ethnic and religious minorities apply to the Mandaean situation. Article 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights against genocide should be considered. There is a moral obligation for the free world, and particularly Canada, to take active and immediate steps to help prevent this small and peaceful community from becoming extinct. We implore the Canadian government to urge the Iraqi government to stop the insurgents and sympathizing religious groups from continuing the systematic attack on the ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq. We also ask the international community to press the Iraqi government to take active steps for the protection of the Mandaean community's culture, historic artifacts, and property, and to provide adequate funds to help Mandaean refugees.

We ask the committee to make the following recommendations to the Canadian government:

The Canadian government should create specific guidelines that recognize the plight of Mandaean people and give them priority as refugees.

The Canadian government should grant interviews to all the remaining Mandaean refugee seekers in Jordan, Syria, Yemen, and Indonesia.

The Canadian government should allow all Mandaean Canadians to sponsor their asylum-seeker relatives.

The Canadian government should encourage the UNHCR to find a humane and durable solution for those refugees who do not ultimately resettle in Canada. When Canada takes leadership--just as it has always done in situations like this--in recognizing this group, the UNHCR will be better able to apply consistent adjudication standards in the different countries that currently host Mandaeans.

Canada has always been compassionate when people have faced such dreadful and dangerous situations. I urge you to give this matter your urgent attention. These peaceful people are in grave danger.

I would like to finish by making reference to a report published by the Mandaean Human Rights Group in March 2008. It outlines in detail the crimes being committed on our people, from kidnapping to murder to rape. I would like to present that report to the committee. I do apologize that it's only in English. I've left a copy with the official here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll make sure that we have copies of it distributed in both official languages in due course. Thank you very much for that, and thank you for your presentation. We really appreciate it. It was very good.

Are you ready, Mr. Telegdi, to ask some questions or to interact with the witnesses?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

With regard to the community in Toronto, I'm sure the community has talked about the Iraqi refugees. How many people in Toronto would be able to be sponsors?

[Mirza Shmoil]

Our organization has a system whereby we find a member who is a resident of Canada and who is a relative of the refugee. We communicate so that instead of a refugee having to settle into a hotel or somewhere else, he can stay with someone. As long as there is someone who's a relative and who's willing to accommodate a person or a family temporarily until the new arrival has been able to find a job and can rent his own apartment, it's a plan with no problems at all.

We have been doing the sponsoring this way, bringing many refugees to this country, without any payments from the government for the first year.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thanks.

I'll now defer to my colleague here, Jim Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks to all for coming today.

l'm wondering if you could speak to how women are being treated in Iraq and to the disparities there for women of different religions. Are people forced to convert from one religion to another, with young women being abducted, held for ransom? If you could address that, I'd be appreciative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

If anyone would like to step in there, feel free.

[Alda Benjamen]

I'd like to make a comment about the first question too. We have to realize that when we're speaking about Christian refugees, we're talking about more than 20% of the Iraqi refugees, more than 400,000 people. Just resettling refugees in Canada will definitely not solve the problem. That's one thing we can do, but that's why we stressed the other things Canada should be doing to help prevent the refugee problem. We will not be able to bring four million people to Canada.

In terms of women, Christian women--and I'm sure the same applies to Mandaean women and other minorities--are very much targeted. We know that in war zones women and children are usually the first targets, but when you are an ethnic and a religious minority, the discrimination is doubled and quadrupled against you.

For instance, we know, from my correspondences with the ChaldoAssyrian Student and Youth Union of Iraq, that a few years ago they were given leaflets at one of the universities--University of Mosul , to be specific--where they were asked to wear the hijab; if not, don't bother coming to school. This was done extensively. There are thousands of women who go to school, so a lot of them stopped going. We know some of them had acid thrown on their faces for coming without covering up or wearing the hijab--the Islamic dress--so there are a lot of things like that.

Even the international community is not really taking the role of women strongly. For instance, when I was in Iraq, in the Nineveh Plains, I visited some of the Assyrian women's union centres, and we see that even the aid they're given does not address their situation very much or help them really empower themselves. In one centre I visited, they were given exercise machines and blow-dryers to teach them, I don't know, how to style their hair and cut their hair. I'm not sure how that's significant in the situation they're facing right now. They don't even have enough food, they have no protection, and you're giving them exercise equipment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It doesn't seem very appropriate, does it?

[Alda Benjamen]

No, not at all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

If there's anyone else who would like to make a comment, feel free.

[Mirza Shmoil]

I'll just add to the question of the women at risk. I think it is because the insurgents know that the Christians have no protection, so they take the risk of kidnapping--or whatever they want to do--just for money's sake or because they know there's nobody to protect them. Also, unfortunately, they think that the Christians or Assyrians are pro-American and coalition forces, so they feel they're doing a duty to their country by just causing problems for smaller groups, really.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Farhan, go ahead.

[Nabil Farhan]

Thank you very much.

First, to address the question with regard to sponsorship, the number of Mandaeans who live in Toronto is around 400 to 500, so in terms of sponsoring, they'd be more than happy to do whatever they can. But be realistic in terms of what their contribution could be for the number of possible refugees that we hope Canada would accept. That would be the issue.

In terms of women--as I said in my opening remarks--Mandaean women have been targeted, and as my colleague here says, it's because they're a minority and they're easy targets. First of all, they don't consider them human, so they use them for pleasure or whatever.

I should refer to my reports. I have a list of Mandaean women who have been kidnapped. Of course, for obvious reasons, we don't disclose the actual names of the women because of the cultural thing in the Middle East. In May 2003, Ms. B.A.Z., a Mandaean girl, was kidnapped and assaulted. Again, in May 2003, Ms. N.S.S., a Mandaean girl, was kidnapped in Baghdad. In July 2, 2003, S.L.R., age 29, was kidnapped in Baghdad and has not been seen since.

The list goes on and on. It's committed every day against Mandaean women. As I said in my opening remarks, we are forbidden to carry arms--we are a very peaceful people--and the government does nothing to protect us.