Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 8th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Carrier.

Madam Chow, for seven minutes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Chair, you've been the chair of this committee for two years now. You do remember that this committee passed a motion to say that we would have a moratorium on deporting undocumented workers. That motion was then debated in the House of Commons for three hours, and the House of Commons, on June 6, 2007, passed a motion to say, please stop deporting undocumented workers while we're fixing the situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, the committee passed a motion.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I just want to be very clear so that we do not accept any more personal attacks at this committee, because I can give you Hansard for June 6, 2007. Maybe some members were not there, but certainly the House did pass that motion. I just wanted to say that.

Unfortunately, that hasn't been implemented yet. Hopefully, through these hearings, there will be some kind of consensus that eventually there would be a regularization, so that people who are facing the situation that was so graphically described by this wonderful, brave young woman will not be experienced by people who are being deported right now, especially the kids. It must be difficult for the kids to experience that.

You know that historically, every 13 or 15 years or so since the 1950s, the government has had some kind of regularization program. We're now at year 15, actually.

[Cosmo Mannella]

We have the history.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Yes, you know the history. So it will come eventually, hopefully.

Let me see if I can get the two key recommendations. You want the point system fixed for categories C and D. Right now, it's A, B, C, and D. With categories C and D right now, people don't have enough points to come into Canada as landed immigrants.

Am I clear that, first, you want the point system fixed so that they can come in as landed immigrants? That's clear.

The second one is that under the experience class, this new class that the Conservative government has brought in, they said that if you work here for two years or so as temporary foreign workers, you can apply within Canada. But for most of them, they have to have university degrees, they would have to speak fluent English, and so on. I would imagine you want the experience class to expand so that, for the people who are in the construction trade and the farm worker folks who won't fit the criteria right now established under the experience class, there's some hope that the temporary foreign workers who are here can apply.

Am I correct in that?

[Cosmo Mannella]

If in fact that is the tack they are taking, with the adjustment to the weighted factors, I want to thank the government for listening--at least, it appears. That is exactly what our industry has put forward for the last four years.

I made the point during my presentation that if you're going to give a certain weight to a four-year undergraduate degree or a two- or three-year community college diploma, please make sure there is some kind of organic nature to this point system that allows the same kind of status to people who have been plying their trade as carpenters or temporary farm workers, or any other worker who is key and essential.

There is no more debate about whether or not these folks are essential to this economy. We've gone beyond that. So I think we need to essentially create a point system that is responsive to the needs of the individuals and the industries we're dealing with.

[Alfredo Barahona]

I just want to say yes, you are correct. We are advocating for all immigrants to be given the opportunity—

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Under the experience class, right?

[Alfredo Barahona]

Yes.

Also, I want to remind you that we've had years and years of experience in which those who come with temporary work permits are vulnerable to abuses. We don't need to repeat that. But I also think a system that would exclude people who've been coming here for years and years....

We have cases in the seasonal agricultural workers program of people being here for 15 or 20 years and never being given a chance. We need to consider that. I think it is discriminatory.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So under the experience class that is just being set up, you want.... It is four streams. Right now it is A, B, C, D. Only people who have the English skills and the degrees would be included at this point. Under the experience class, it would be great if at least some percentage of the farm workers, for example, could be accepted as landed immigrants. Some end up staying here illegally and applying for refugee status or they become undocumented workers. So there's a channel, right?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll have a response, then I'll go to Mr. Komarnicki.

[Tanya Molina]

I think maybe it's important to see the two questions together. The long-term goal would be that all people would be allowed to come to Canada under the same circumstances and with the same rights and status. In the meantime, I think there is value in looking at ways to allow people who are here with temporary work status to apply for permanent status, and I think my colleagues have spoken well to that point.

I would just add the caution, as Alfredo has said, that people who are here with temporary status are in a vulnerable position. I wouldn't want to see that perpetuated. Certainly under the live-in caregiver program, under which people have to complete a certain amount of time as temporary workers in order to apply for permanent status, they become subject to a lot of pressure, long hours, and even sexual abuse because of the fear of losing that work and thus their opportunity to gain permanent status.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

In the interest of fairness to all, we have seven minutes, so we'll give three and a half and three and a half.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll be sharing my time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have heard so many complaints regarding the views of these workers that these employers take advantage of them.

How do we protect these individuals from being exploited by their employers? Are there any laws in place we could use?

[Cosmo Mannella]

Let me tell you that we uncovered perhaps the largest in Canada.

And yes, we have some pretty good laws. Quebec has some excellent laws to protect workers. Ontario has the Employment Standards Act. The problem is that when a worker is undocumented and is hiding, he's not going to come forward and lodge a complaint. That's the issue. It's not about whether we have enough force in the law; it's the fear that these people are living under.

Let me tell you very quickly a little story about how exploitation can take place. We had some employers in our industry, unfortunately, unscrupulous ones, a small minority, who, because of the relationship and because of the inherent fear these workers felt, were applying the pension credits these people were earning to themselves. They knew that these people could not come forward and identify themselves for fear that any kind of identification, any kind of exposure, would lead to them being deported.

Yes, I do advocate on behalf of stronger labour laws and stronger employment standard laws everywhere. But it's not so much the force of the law; it's the inherent fear that these people live under that does not allow them to come forward and express their human rights.

[Alfredo Barahona]

It's not only the factor of fear, it's also the fact that many of the labour standards that apply to Canadian citizens do not apply to temporary foreign workers. It's not only that factor of fear.

Can you imagine how nervous I feel sitting before you? Even though I've been here for over 20 years, still the issues and the immigrant refugee feeling still affect the way I think and the way I interact with you. Can you imagine somebody who is undocumented? Those are the issues.

I agree with my colleague that numbers and economics are very important. We cannot avoid thinking of them in our decisions. But we need to take the human aspect of it into consideration as well. There are laws, yes, but temporary workers are excluded from them. They don't have the right to unionize, for example. So we need to expand it.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to pass my time to Mr. Khan.

[Cosmo Mannella]

I have to make one correction to my colleague here.

We have in fact, within our local union in Toronto, organized hundreds of undocumented workers, some temporary. We have in fact given them full rights under the union. They have full benefits. The issue is that we can only do that for those who have come forward.

We have in fact, from our perspective--and I may be getting into trouble here--given them status as union members who are plying their trade and who deserve every single protection that any other member has while working within our sector.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. Regardless of whether the Liberals or the Conservatives have been in power--they are the only ones who have been in power--Canada has always been a compassionate country. The immigration system has never been perfect and never will be perfect, but we must strive toward addressing the issues that you have brought forth, humanitarian issues and compassionate issues.

To some extent, humanitarian and compassionate and economic issues are all linked. With a good economy, a family making a decent living can also have a better standard of living. Children can go to school, etc.

Mr. Mannella, I agree with you 100%, sir, but it's not only Ontario; all provinces--British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba--are seeing a huge surge in the economy because of our real estate construction.

The issue with regard to construction workers has long been a concern. I've been working with Jack Pazeres and others on it. There have always been objections as to why they should be given preference over those who have applied normally. At the same time, you send them back and....

I also want to state at this point that the deportation of construction workers is not a high priority but a low priority. I'd like to ask you what exactly you would like to see happen as far as this is concerned.

[Cosmo Mannella]

First of all, let me address your comment.

In fairness, I know that a lot of work has been done on a lot of fronts. I know that you in particular have been involved. But on that whole notion of queue-jumping and the people who apply, let me just say that in fact for many of the workers we're talking about here there is no queue. Under the current system, they don't fit anywhere. If they want to come to this country, their only choice is to come the way they have come. Rightly or wrongly, that's the avenue they've taken. Quite frankly, I think that speaks to the inadequacies of our system, as you've suggested.

What would we like to see? First of all, let's get a handle on the normalization. Provided people do not pose any kind of security risk to this country and have no criminal record, and have shown themselves to be contributing members of society--as we say in our analysis, which I will be leaving for the committee--whether it be in the construction industry, the farming industry, or any other industry, let's deal with them and let's make them full citizens, with full participation in the economy and what this country has to offer. That would be good for us. A number of them are probably now fuelling the underground economy, and that's not a good thing. If they could become functioning members of this society, that would be a good thing.

Two, let's work the system so that it's organic, so that we can make changes as we need to, so that it isn't so rigid that people such as construction workers or itinerant farm workers can't even apply because the system doesn't fit--when in fact everything in the economy states that they do fit, and that they are needed. My own father came here as a logger, way back in 1951, because that's what was needed. They were clearing land up in the northern Ontario regions.

Let's make the system more responsive. Let's not get bogged down in whether or not people have millions of dollars to invest. Quite frankly, I can tell you that there are people who came to this country with nothing and amassed fortunes. They ended up hiring hundreds of people and being net contributors to this economy.

So let's make it a more organic, more dynamic system that's responsive to the needs of this country and the needs of these individuals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Good. Thank you.

Because we're such a non-partisan group and we're in Mr. Karygiannis' riding, I'll give him the last minute again. I'm sure he just wants to thank you for being here.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I do want to thank the witnesses for coming to the great riding of Scarborough--Agincourt. I also have a quick question.

These hearings are on undocumented workers, Iraqi refugees, consultants, and everything else. There's a bill in front of the House tonight, Bill C-50, and it's a motion of confidence. If we were to vote on that bill, certainly all these hearings would go to waste, and all the work we've done would go to waste. Bill C-50 would spark the election, and there wouldn't be a full hearing.

Would it be more responsible to kill Bill C-50 or would it be more responsible to make sure we have full hearings--

[An hon. member]

Oh, come on!