Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 15th, 2008

[Stephen Stewart]

I still think we need to be able to address the whole issue of.... It doesn't matter where the worker is from, in my opinion, if they want to come to Canada and they want to work. We fully understood, going into this, that if they were here for two to three years, they could apply for permanent residency. We were very well aware of that fact and we had hoped that they would be able to continue to work for us for that two- to three-year period.

If they're great people, why shouldn't they be allowed to stay in the country? And then they're free to go off and pursue whatever interests they want. We knew that going into this, but I really believe that it doesn't matter if it's me or anybody in Canada; as employers, we need some kind of system so that the workers, whatever country they're from, understand that if they're signing a contract and coming to work, they have to fulfill their contract, as long as they're not being mistreated. To be able to go and roam the country for a year, at my expense—

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Perhaps I could ask one more question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

They didn't seem to have any concept of what a contract really was.

[Stephen Stewart]

I really don't think they ever planned on staying, anyway. Two weeks after they were here, they were already pricing their trip to Ottawa. Obviously it was a master plan before they ever came here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes. Very good.

Madame Folco, thank you.

Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for coming, Mr. Stewart. If I understood correctly, your company is in Prince Edward Island. Is that correct?

[Stephen Stewart]

Correct.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I have never been to Prince Edward Island. I am told that it is a very beautiful place. I can't understand why people would want to leave Prince Edward Island, especially to go to Toronto. That's my personal opinion.

On a more serious note, you mentioned that these individuals have left your business. They left and as long as they do not work for another company, they are not acting illegally. Obviously, we all know they are not staying in Canada as tourists. They're working in restaurants or elsewhere. Are these individuals working under the table or are they officially working elsewhere? According to you, some of them say they received T4 slips and that they pay taxes. Surely they are on someone else's list of employees then.

[Stephen Stewart]

It's quite a story. We had numerous calls from different cities by Sri Lankans who lived in Canada. People would call. I was even advised at one point by a Sri Lankan who called from Ottawa and said that I really needed to drop this whole issue because of the whole Tamil Tiger situation, that waves were being made and that there were things I probably really didn't want to get into. Yes, they were working, and people knew where they were: they were working underground.

At one point we decided, well, perhaps it's time to let it all die, based on what people were calling about and telling us.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

As far as you know, these individuals are all working underground. No one is working legally.

[Stephen Stewart]

I believe the majority of them now--I can't speak for them all, because the ones who have been in contact with us seem to know where the rest of them are--have applied for refugee status. I really don't know how the system works. They have some kind of temporary status whereby they're allowed to work now. They're no longer under my employer contract because of however they applied to stay in Canada.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

We really need to shed some light on this. Even if they have filed a refugee claim and they're working elsewhere, they still have a responsibility under the contract they signed with you. Therefore, if they are working somewhere else and they are declaring that income, then the government can trace them and remind them that they have a contract somewhere else and they have to fulfill that contract first.

Furthermore, you appear to be saying that you want to move on and not carry this case on forever. However, if you were to be able to trace these individuals, you wouldn't be able to receive compensation from them. On the one hand, you can't find them and on the other hand, they probably are not making enough of an income to reimburse you for the amounts in question.

[Stephen Stewart]

Yes, actually just a week and a half ago, a particular individual's T4 had already been mailed out--because we have to send out the T4s--and he e-mailed a second time inquiring why he hadn't received it yet. And yes, I did e-mail him back and said, “It's in the mail. And by the way, the cost of your plane ticket was this much, and we'd greatly appreciate your refunding the money that we paid to get you here.”

You talked about letting it drop. From what we were told by the people who called us, the issue of trying to get them sent back, because I was mad, that whole idea or that side of it.... Yes, we just decided there was nothing we could do about it. Then we got involved with writing letters to the people we thought could help change the system.

I really feel that in the years to come, we're going to have no choice but to go down this road again. So our goal became to try to fix the system, to protect people like me for the next time.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

What I find surprising is that this is the first time this has been pointed out to us since I have been on this committee. Yet, department officials discussed several problems with us. I'm pleased that you came to speak to us about your case. I think that everyone is surprised. Now we need to see whether this is a common problem and I look forward to hearing the department's comments.

The most surprising statement you made is that this happens all the time. Why is it that an attempt has not been made to find a solution?

What this demonstrates more broadly is that when a system does not work, when it is rotten, as ours currently is—let's be frank—when waiting periods are extremely long and when the process makes no sense, people try through any possible means to bypass the law or the system.

Individuals who have testified before us have told us that some people apply for refugee status rather than immigration simply because processing a refugee application is faster than processing a standard immigration application. What we're seeing today is individuals using this program to come into the country, and then once they are here they leave and go elsewhere.

I have no more questions but it is not because I don't find this interesting. It's so new. We heard your testimony and I am now looking forward to hearing what the Department of Citizenship and Immigration will have to tell us about this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'll take some questions from Mr. Carrier, and then go back to Madam Folco.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Stewart. I'm pleased to see you here. I would like to correct something my colleague said: we have often been told that it was easier to obtain temporary worker status than to go through the immigration process.

So these aren't refugees, as you stated, but rather temporary workers. We have been told from the very beginning that the process is simpler and faster and that employers were generally happy with it. This is the first time that we have heard of a case like the one you have described today.

Did you use a recruiting firm to hire the workers you signed a contract with?

[Stephen Stewart]

Actually, numerous firms had called, and this kind of adds to the strange part of the story. A local person from Sri Lanka, who had lived in P.E.I. for close to 10 years, knew that I was looking for workers. He was quite an honourable person. He was the head chef at the local hospital in Charlottetown, he was the local head chef at a nice hotel in Charlottetown, and he was a very smart individual. When he knew I wanted to bring in 12 people, he was trying to bring in his brother. And his brother was actually the one person who did not come at the time. He basically sold us on the entire program, that it was better not to use a service, because a lot of times the service keeps half the workers' money and they don't get all the money they're paid.

So this particular individual is who we used to identify and access the workers. Even when I checked into him with the local government, he came with a good background, and everybody thought he was a great guy and that this was the way for us to go to access our workers. We used a local person who was from there.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

We were told during other testimonies that temporary workers sign their contracts in their countries of origin in their language. They were therefore aware of their contract provisions before coming here. That is how they accepted coming to work here.

In your case, you used the assistance of a friend. Was he dealing with an established firm, in the workers' country of origin, that explained to the workers the contract they would have to comply with?

[Stephen Stewart]

When the contracts got signed, the Canadian government dealt with the government there. Those people had to go through security clearance, and they all had to be approved by the Canadian government in Sri Lanka in order to even come to Canada. So they were well informed and signed their contracts at the office, wherever the office was, in Sri Lanka.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Was that the first time you used temporary workers?

[Stephen Stewart]

Yes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You had a bad experience. Without being an expert, perhaps I could say that the process you followed resulted in a negative outcome. Regardless, these contracts were authorized by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and were signed following an agreement with that department.

That is why I'm surprised that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, who were informed about the situation, did not compensate you or take responsibility. They could tell you they're responsible, that they apologize and will find an alternative, or compensate you for the investment you made.

According to what you said earlier, the only response you obtained was that it often happens and that you would have to deal with it alone. Is that the response you were given?

[Stephen Stewart]

Pretty much. I'm also the vice-president of the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance, so I'm in Ottawa quite often for meetings with government on aquaculture issues, and this is one thing that's always on the table--the temporary worker program. And I've been told on more than one occasion, “There's nothing we can do for you. Do a better job next time. Think harder about who's coming and hope they work out better for you next time.”

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

If I understand correctly, you would like the Department of Citizenship and Immigration to shoulder its responsibility regarding this type of program, that it in fact administers. Did you expect the department to act more responsibly with this program?

[Stephen Stewart]

Yes.