Evidence of meeting #21 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chairman.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Chaplin
Richard Fadden  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning.

This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, meeting 21, Tuesday, June 9, 2009. There are two items on the orders of the day. One is committee business. Secondly, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we have supplementary estimates (A) 2009-2010, votes 1a and 5a under Citizenship and Immigration, referred to the committee on Thursday, May 14, 2009.

Members the committee, you should have a number of documents. You should have the supplementary estimates, a draft resolution, and a draft ninth report. Does everyone have those things?

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Could you read that over again?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'm sorry, Ms. Chow.

You should have before you the supplementary estimates. With respect to the first item on the agenda, which is the topic of disclosure of confidential draft reports, you should have a draft resolution and a draft ninth report. I hope you all have that material.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

We don't have the supplementary estimates.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

They are coming, and that will be for the second topic.

The first topic has to do with the draft report, which, if all goes well, I intend to present to the House on Thursday, having been authorized by the committee to do so.

The problem is that before I have presented the report to the House of Commons I have read about it in the newspapers. The report is confidential until it is presented to the House. As chair, I'm very upset and concerned about this, and I hope you will be as well.

I trust you have read the gist of the ninth report. I'm going to read it to you, because I think it's serious.

On Thursday, June 4, 2009, the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration met in camera to discuss its draft report of its study of ghost consultants and migrant workers.

On Friday, June 5, 2009, an article by Don Martin published in The National Post states that “a report [was] leaked to me Thursday”.

I might add that I read it in other papers. It might have been The Toronto Star. I'm not sure, but I know one of the papers had it.

Several points of information contained in the confidential draft report were mentioned in the article, as well as a direct quotation:

“The committee regrets that such situations may occur under the live-in caregiver program”. In light of this matter, the Committee has reason to believe that a potential breach of privilege has occurred, and on Tuesday, June 9, 2009, the Committee adopted the following motion:

That the Committee report to the House an apparent breach of privilege of members that has resulted from disclosure of the confidential draft report on the migrant workers and ghost consultants; that the report indicate that media reports from last week included a direct quotation from the confidential draft report; that a reporter has indicated that he has a copy of the confidential draft report; and that the Committee request that the House and the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs investigate this matter further.

Your Committee feels it is their duty to place these matters before the House at this time since a question of privilege may be involved and to give the House an opportunity to reflect on these matters. A copy of the relevant Minutes of Proceedings (Meetings Nos. 20 and 21) is tabled.

It's a little unusual that I read that, but I consider this most serious.

There is a draft resolution, which by now I trust you've had an opportunity to read. I would ask, if members are interested, that someone move that resolution and read it into the record.

Mr. Dykstra.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Chair, I will read it into the record. Let me read it into the record, and then I do have some comments. It reads:

That the Committee report to the House an apparent breach of privilege of members that has resulted from disclosure of the confidential draft report on the migrant workers and ghost consultants; that the report indicate that a media report included a direct quotation from the confidential draft report; that a reporter has indicated that he has a copy of the confidential draft report; and that the Committee request that the House and the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs investigate this matter further.

I'll say one thing. I did have a chance to speak to Mr. Bevilacqua about this yesterday. I'm not quite sure about how detailed an investigation we can do. I don't know if there's an additional option, whether it's an affidavit sworn by each of the members on this committee that they did not release, or perhaps our staff signing one, that would certainly put us in good standing.

There is no question that surrounding the report, we did a lot of work. We did a lot of sometimes painful work in terms of our dialogue with each other and our work with each other. Nonetheless, despite our perspectives on the report itself, whether it be content, whether it be recommendations, or whether it be direction, this committee actually works extremely well. The fact that there has been a breach.... We've had this happen once before, and perhaps I was a little too aggressive in the motion that I moved at that point, and I took some good advice from my colleagues on that. The fact is, we have a report. There is no question that the folks around this table have seen the report. It's been reported on in the media. It's been released to at least one individual in the media. I think that despite our differences on the content or the result of the report, there is one thing I believe this committee has, and it's the confidence in each other to work in a fair and open-minded way, in a confidential way.

I think we have to make a mark here in terms of where we stand on this. I've certainly moved the motion. I hope we have unanimous support on this. I actually hope we have a recorded vote on it, quite frankly. I would just put it out there that since I moved the motion, I can't make an amendment to the motion. I understand that this has happened at another committee, where the members of that committee signed the affidavit indicating that they had not released the report. So that would at least put us in confidence with each other in terms of moving forward.

It's unfortunate. It's regrettable. I have no reason actually to understand why the report would have been leaked. Frankly, you're going to be introducing it into the house on Wednesday--tomorrow. It's just a matter of a couple of days and the report would have been made public. I do not understand the importance of having it out there earlier than tomorrow.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Bevilacqua, and then Monsieur St-Cyr.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

These are events in the proceedings of the committee that are of major concern, because they're a true breach of privileges. I'm concerned about it because it really is very disrespectful toward the work of the committee and toward opinions expressed by each committee member.

I also want to say that when leaks such as this occur, one of the things I look at is the angle that is presented to the press, and from that I draw my own conclusions. I can therefore tell you that when I read the articles you referred to, I certainly was not happy about the fact that a member, or somebody, who had the report in their possession felt that they were actually more important than the parliamentary work being done on behalf of the people of Canada, to improve a program that needs improvement, the live-in caregiver program, that requires our attention as parliamentarians.

I'm not pointing fingers here. I read the article. I've been around for 21 years in this place. I know how these things occur sometimes. But they're the bad side of public policy; they're the bad side of what parliamentarians and what the entire process is truly all about. If we want to move forward as a committee, and we if we want to move forward as a Parliament, we'd better get a grip on this kind of behaviour, because it demonstrates lack of respect.

Quite frankly, whoever the person is and whoever the person or persons are who are responsible for these leaks, I hope when they look in the mirror they see exactly what they look like, because these are individuals I have zero respect for, personally—zero respect because they obviously don't respect the work of the committee, they don't respect the interventions made by the witnesses in the committee, they don't respect the seriousness of the issues we're dealing with when we're dealing with human lives.

These hearings were difficult hearings for many individuals and for members of this committee, and to have someone act in that fashion speaks to the fact that there's some serious thinking that needs to take place in that person's head. These are not individuals worthy of participating in the process. These are individuals who are contravening some very basic rights that we have as parliamentarians.

I hope, Mr. Chair, that in your statement to the House, if that is the course of action you will take, you'll be very firm and relay a message. As well, this should be brought to the attention of the Speaker, the attention of anyone who is responsible for the management of parliamentary business here in the House of Commons.

Let me tell you, I feel poorly for that person or those persons who did this, because I think there are some deep-rooted problems in their head, quite frankly. They lack the dignity to belong to a chamber such as the House of Commons. They also lack the dignity to participate in any way in this process.

I hope they're listening, and I hope they enjoyed their little moment of glory when they leaked it to a reporter. Probably these are very small people who probably thrive on that particular way of conducting their business and probably feel important that perhaps a reporter gave them attention, attention that's perhaps missing in their own personal lives.

So have a good time breaking down the democratic process of this committee. Have a good time with your action, and I hope you sleep very well at night, being the small person that you are.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

The chair isn't supposed to take sides, but I couldn't have said it better.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also very concerned by this situation, which I learned about this morning. I do not read the National Post regularly. In fact, I rarely read it.

This situation is very worrying. As Mr. Dykstra pointed out, it is not the first time that this type of situation happens at this committee. When we were studying the previous report on ghost consultants, the minister announced certain measures, which coincidentally resembled the ones we had developed. At the time, I pointed this out and people took notice. So this situation must change.

I think that everyone around the table does not like what happened. Mr. Bevilacqua noted that the person who leaked the information was lacking in morals and had no respect for democracy. Apart from the 12 members who sit at this table, there are several others, including assistants, employees or others who had access to the report. So before engaging in a witch hunt to find the guilty member, each of us should speak with members of their staff who had access to the report, and make them understand that confidentiality is of the utmost importance, and that no one, of their own initiative, is allowed to leak this type of document.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. St-Cyr.

Ms. Chow.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Chair, everything has been said already. I don't need to repeat it.

I will certainly support the motion and the invitation to sign affidavits. I think all committee members should be asked to sign, including those who may not be here today. I have no problem if you even ask our staff who may have access. Certainly it's regrettable.

I actually heard from the reporter, a different reporter, the next day when the story came out. I unfortunately didn't see the story until it was mentioned to me, and this second reporter said he also had a copy. It sounds as if it was more than one reporter who got a copy. It sounds as if it was two reporters or maybe even more. I don't know, but someone is obviously passing out something, whichever report it was. So definitely, I think it should be investigated.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

It sounds as if someone had a press conference. That's how serious it was.

Are you suggesting an amendment?

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I think Mr. Dykstra had something about a practice. I'm not aware of that kind of practice and I don't know how it would be done.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

The difficulty, as Monsieur St-Cyr has listed off.... There are members who sit at this committee. Each member can have one staff person at these meetings. There are others in the room, and I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, but there is a whole bunch of people here through whom it could have happened. I think Mr. Bevilacqua has laid it all out to us, as to what we think of whoever that person is.

Is there any other discussion?

Mr. Clerk, there has been a request for a recorded vote.

9:20 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Andrew Chaplin

Will you give them the question, or shall I just call the vote?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Just call the vote.

Does everyone understand what it is? Mr. Dykstra has—

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

On this one, not the one that was submitted here.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

No, no. It's on this one.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

It's on this one, the amended one. Okay.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

This amended thing. Okay.

9:20 a.m.

The Clerk

Sorry, I didn't catch the amendment. Where is...?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

It's a sentence that actually makes it a little lighter to read. That's how I see it.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Is everybody clear what's going on here?

I'm going to read it:

That the committee report to the House an apparent breach of privilege of members that has resulted from disclosure of the confidential draft report on the migrant workers and ghost consultants; that the report indicate that a media report included a direct quotation from the confidential draft report; that a reporter has indicated that he has a copy of the confidential draft report; and that the committee request that the House and the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs investigate this matter further.

Mr. Clerk.

9:20 a.m.

The Clerk

We will have a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]