Evidence of meeting #21 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chairman.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Chaplin
Richard Fadden  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, this issue has been raised several times today. For two years now the government has had a policy to establish a biometric system for visitors to Canada. There are many reasons for this.

First, as I already stated, there's a growing problem with fraudulent documents that do not provide the true identity of those people who wish to visit Canada. Biometric identification is the only way of determining the true identity of an individual. A biometric system will reduce the amount of fraud on the part of individuals applying to visit Canada.

Obviously this is also an issue of national security. If criminals, for example potential terrorists, come to Canada, they do not come with their own passport, their own identity, their own name. They come with another name and a false pretext. In terms of security, biometrics is the only way to verify the identity of visitors to Canada. That is why most democratic countries are opting for biometrics.

Do you have something to add to that?

10:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

Mr. Chairman, I would only point out that the intention is to establish...

All right?

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Just ignore what I'm doing here.

Go ahead and answer.

10:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

The intention is to establish the identity of an individual when they make their initial application abroad. The photos and fingerprints are sent to the Border Services Agency so that when an individual comes to Canada, we can check that their identity is truly the one they're claiming. Often, the individuals applying from abroad are not the same as the people who come here to Canada with the documents. So the purpose is truly to establish their identity permanently. The British, French and American authorities tell us that simply having these systems encourages people to go elsewhere. So there is also a deterrent effect.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Fadden.

Mr. Harris, welcome to the committee. You have five minutes, sir.

June 9th, 2009 / 10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to start by congratulating you. I think in the short time you've been minister since October of 2008, you've certainly gone a long way to putting your personal stamp on how your department operates.

10:30 a.m.

An hon. member

Hear, hear!

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

And I know Mr. Fadden as your deputy has been working closely with you. It's a shame to see him leaving. I think you have a good team going, and we expect that by the time your tenure in this job is finished, the bar will have been raised much higher, and good on you for that.

I want to ask about a particular program or initiative that you did, the online information regarding immigration consultants and your advising potential newcomers to Canada about ghost consultants, who unfortunately many, many people have paid a lot of money to and received virtually nothing from them. Have you had a chance to really assess that program and how effective it's been?

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Chairman, I thank Mr. Harris for the question. This is a really serious concern, obviously, for thousands of new Canadians and prospective immigrants to Canada who have been defrauded in various ways by ghost consultants. I think we all recognize that the current regulatory framework is not up to snuff; it's not up to par. It's not getting the job done to protect people from ghost consultants. Certainly this standing committee made that point very evident in its report on the issue, which I have read. I've had these consultations across the country. I know Dr. Wong participated in one in Vancouver. I know that the stories of these people are very sad.

You can go into newspapers in Canada or abroad and see these advertisements saying, "Visas to Canada guaranteed". You can go to certain cities throughout the world and see billboards with scammed, ripped-off versions of the Canadian government wordmark implying that these consultants are operating with the approval of the Government of Canada, or perhaps even are agents of the government. The fraud is massive. It's widespread. It's deliberate. It is probably a multi-hundred-million-dollar industry at the international level. It is taking advantage of the dream that people have of coming to Canada, for which some people are willing to pay a very great deal—thousands of dollars in some parts of this world.

The challenge is that overseas, obviously, we can't apply Canadian law to regulate immigration consultants in these other parts of the world. But what I've asked is that we make the proper regulation and policing of third parties in this field in foreign countries a priority bilateral issue in our relationships with certain countries. It's certainly something I raised in India when I was there, with the government in Punjab, and in Delhi with the national Indian government. I would like to see much more meaningful action on the part of our principal source countries to protect their own citizens from this kind of fraud. We are stepping up our advertising efforts. We have warnings posted in 17 languages on our website and in all relevant local languages at our missions and visa application centres abroad, letting people know they don't need to use consultants. If they are using them, the latter should be licensed, and the people should be aware of ghost consultants.

Finally, in terms of the regulatory framework here in Canada, I agree that what is happening now is not adequate. That is why later this year we will be coming forward with some meaningful changes to increase the penalties and the sanctions for operating outside the law, and to provide a more robust regulatory framework for the consultants who operate legally.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Minister.

I have more questions.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

No, I'm going to give Mr. Bevilacqua a minute.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Thank you, Mr. Harris, for your generosity.

Mr. Calandra raised a very important issue that is related to the issue we were talking about earlier in reference to diversity and understanding and how power structures in this country need to be reflective of the composition of the society in which we live, given the fact that we both agree we do face challenges. I have to thank Mr. Calandra for something that struck me as he stated the reasons why he didn't vote in favour of Mr. Pacetti's motion on internment of Italian Canadians. I was struck by something I hear as I speak to the over one million Canadians of Italian heritage: why this government does not have an Italian Canadian in cabinet. It's a concern. It's a concern the community has, because they feel they're not represented around the table. That is an issue.

The only reason I raised it, Mr. Chairman, is because Mr. Calandra spoke about the Italian-Canadian internment issue, which is a very serious issue, and I know the minister takes that particular issue seriously.

As a courtesy question, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister what this committee can do to help him do his job better.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

A few things come to mind.

I think Mr. Bevilacqua knows I feel like I'm Italian at heart—

10:35 a.m.

An hon. member

Oh, no.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

—even though I'm Irish.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

As someone of Irish descent, I don't care.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I'll pass on to the Prime Minister Mr. Bevilacqua's recommendation for Mr. Calandra to become a member of the ministry.

Perhaps if.... Well, I'll just leave it at that. I don't want to get into trouble.

Actually I'm proud of our government's diversity. All parties can always do better in this respect, for sure.

I've raised some issues before. You've raised the question of a lack of understanding among different faith groups in Canada, for instance. This is a concern to me. The first issue I invited this committee to look at broadly is the question of integration, the program side of our settlement services, and how effective we are being. We really need advice on that, because we've tripled the money for this but we haven't seen a commensurate increase in the uptake or in the outcomes. This is a subject for real study. Are the settlement agencies doing as good a job as they could? Are they being responsive to consumer need? There are all those issues.

But there is also this question of foreign credential recognition. I would love to have a parliamentary forum where you could call onto the carpet the heads of the main licensing bodies for the professions in this country and ask what's going on. Why is it taking ten years for a foreign-trained lawyer or doctor or engineer to get credentialed in Canada? That would be a great place to shine the light of public exposure: the practices of the licensing agencies. I think that could help all Canadians.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Calandra and Mr. Dykstra, you have five minutes.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bevilacqua, for your overwhelming support. Being a new member, I think I'll learn a little bit more.

Minister, I want to get back to something this committee talked about some time ago, and perhaps Mr. Fadden might also comment on this. In particular, it was a motion that was brought forward by a Liberal member and the opposition forced through with respect to deportations of individuals from Canada to Sri Lanka.

As you may know, I was a strong opponent of that. One of the things I worried about was that the motion made no reference to those with serious issues of criminality and who may have been convicted of crimes in Canada. I struggled with that motion. We've brought forward some examples of individuals: one man who had been convicted of a cleaver attack and destroying a community centre.

I note a large Tamil Canadian community in my riding. Some of the individuals who run businesses in my community were extraordinarily disappointed with that motion because some of them had been the target of criminal activity.

Especially now in light of the fact that we are bringing more Tamil Sri Lankans to Canada to deal with the humanitarian situation, I wonder if you might be able to comment on that type of motion and how Canadians are served by what I believe is reducing our ability to protect Canadians by bringing forward a motion that would do that, and if this could also lead to other examples in other areas of our immigration system where we'll be passing motions to deal with other countries that might fall into this situation.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I would point out that it's been the longstanding practice of the Government of Canada under different parties in power to ensure that criminals, particularly dangerous criminals, are removed from this country if they're foreign nationals. Even though Canada has long had a system of temporary stay of removals for certain countries in conflict, countries it is unsafe to remove individuals to, there's always been an exception in the temporary stay of removal policy, so that with regard to criminals, particularly dangerous criminals, their removal is not stayed by virtue of the country's conditions.

This is consistent across the world. I can't understand why we would pick out one particular country. Right now, I think we have seven countries on the temporary stay of removal list. I don't know why we would say, okay, we'll remove dangerous criminals to those seven countries, but not this one. That doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't make sense to me from a public safety point of view. Foreign nationals who come here and break our laws, particularly those who create social disorder or violence in Canada, have no right to stay in Canada, and we as the government have an obligation to see that they are removed, I think much more promptly than they are.

I would encourage committee members to reflect on the public safety dimension of this issue, whether we're talking about Sri Lanka or any other country of origin, quite frankly.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You have one minute.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

One of the things that I want to actually compliment the department on is that in February when you were here, Minister, a number of questions and requests were made by the parties opposite in regard to a number of issues. In the area of those responses, a lot of work has gone into putting that response together.

Would the deputy mind updating the committee on a couple of things that were pointed out, in particular on the levels of immigration since 1990?

10:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

You catch me a bit unaware. I'm not quite sure of the gist of your question. I think we've tried to answer all of the questions put by the committee. Do you mean to update since then? If so, I don't have them with me, so I can't do that.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

No, I think the updates are pretty clearly laid out for all of us. It was more of a general observation on where we've gone since 1990 in terms of the levels and the numbers with respect to immigration.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Perhaps next time.

I guess there won't be a next time. Your successor will be next time.

Mr. Karygiannis.