Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 9th, 2009

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I can certainly let you know where we have gone since the Conservatives took office: first year, 20% up; second year 70% up; third year 53% up on skilled workers. Just this year alone, we've seen 20% up on children and spousal at 37.5%. Certainly these figures have not been disputed at all throughout the number of years.

Mr. Fadden, I'm going to come to you, sir, directly. On January 30 I put a request in to the minister. You were copied. I got a read receipt. Four times since then I got a read receipt on the timelines and the refusal rates in Moscow and in Armenia. That has taken four and a half months, and I do not have a reply. Is it because you don't want to release these figures, or are these figures sitting somewhere in the minister's office, or with his chief of staff, and he doesn't want to release them? It's been four and a half months, sir.

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, I believe my minister has already answered that question.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay. Then, sir, let me ask you another question.

Mr. Stewart, I believe, about a month ago, had a public meeting and the question was asked of him, “Is the department allocating extra resources to Sri Lanka?” At that time, he said no. Has that changed since then, Mr. Fadden, sir?

[Richard Fadden]

Yes. We're sending two officers on temporary duty for the period covered between June and September.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, you said that you're going to do biometrics and you're going to spend $12.1 million on biometrics. So this will target countries such as India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the countries of Africa, and all the countries that require a visitor visa application. That is certainly not going to be the same for countries in Europe and the other countries that do not require a visitor visa. Am I correct? Will the biometrics only be for countries that require a visitor visa?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

No, that's not correct.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So somebody coming into Canada from the U.K. or from France will also need biometrics. How are you proposing to do this, since they don't require a visitor visa?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, the intention is to capture in the program citizens from all countries who are coming to Canada on a temporary basis. For example, visitors from the United Kingdom don't require visas if they're only visiting. They do require visas if they are studying or working. The intention is to capture everybody. The idea is to increase our capacity to know who is in Canada at a particular point in time.

As the minister I think indicated earlier, we're going to phase this in and we're going to pick countries where there are more concerns. But the intent is to cover all temporary visitors.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Since people don't require a temporary visitor visa to come in from Britain, from France, from Germany, how would you be capturing their information?

[Richard Fadden]

The broad intention is to develop worldwide a series of visa application centres that would be private enterprises under contract with the department who would handle the taking of biometric data. I think we have something of the order of 20 or 25 of them around the world now. The intent would be once the biometric program is up and running, these VACs, over and above accepting the applications, would take in the biometric information. Then these are channeled through the Canadian missions abroad and eventually to Canada.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

But, Mr. Fadden, people from the U.K., people from France, people from Germany, people from Italy, and people from Greece are not required to get a visitor visa. The only thing they are required to do is get on a plane and show their passport, and in they come. How are you proposing to capture their biometric data?

[Richard Fadden]

When this program is fully implemented--and I want to stress, as the minister did, we're doing this in a phased way--to get into this country at some point in time, and I don't know what that time is, under a temporary arrangement you're going to require biometric data. Eventually we're going to set up arrangements either in Canadian missions or in visa application centres everywhere.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If I understand this correctly, the Germans, French, people from Britain, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, and people from the EU would one day have to apply for a visitor visa to come to Canada?

[Richard Fadden]

No, I didn't say they'd need a visitor visa; I said we would need biometric information.

Part of the difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is that there are significant program integrity and national security issues originating from people who are citizens of EU countries. We don't see any program basis on which to distinguish our treatment of them, as opposed to people who come from other parts of the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Fadden, Mr. Karygiannis.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

I didn't have time earlier on to wrap up on the issue of foreign credentials.

I think it is clear that the federal government's attempt to interfere in jurisdictions that clearly belong to the provinces is indicative of an ideology based on Pierre Elliott Trudeau's nation-building. In that regard there isn't much difference between the Conservatives and the Liberals.

If all were well at the federal level, if there were no problems, if everything were under control and there were undue wait times, then I might understand why one would invest money in areas that clearly fall under provincial jurisdiction.

Given that there are significant immigration problems, do you not think that money would be better invested if it were entirely allocated to wait times or if it were directly given to the provinces? The provinces are already working on having foreign credentials recognized.

We support that. I believe there are also problems. I am a member of the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec and I have been putting pressure on my own association for progress to be made. I think there's also the issue of efficiency. The provinces already have to work with professional associations. If another layer is added—the federal government will impose standards for national frameworks and national policies—if there's no acceptance of the fact that there are differences between different provinces, then we're no longer dealing with a federal system, we're dealing with a unitary system.

If one believes in federalism, one has to be able to live with the fact that Quebec may have a different way of doing things from that of Ontario, Saskatchewan or Manitoba. That is federalism.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Let us be clear, Mr. Chairman.

Each province is responsible for managing their labour market and the organizations that are responsible for recognizing credentials, among other things.

If Quebec does not want to participate in a Canada-wide approach, then it can withdraw. It is very simple. We are not doing anything that threatens Quebec sovereignty with respect to Quebec's jurisdictions or credential recognition.

However, Quebec has just reached an agreement with France for the recognition of law degrees. If Quebec can reach that kind of an agreement with France, I would hope that it could do so with Ontario as well.

As I said, it just makes sense. It does not diminish Quebec's authority, or any other province's authority, to reach agreements with other provinces within the framework of a Canada-wide approach. Yes, we work within a federal system, but federalism does not prohibit cooperation between all provinces.

For your information, the 10 premiers and 3 territorial premiers signed an agreement in January for cooperation in that area, and we are here to assist them.

We are not here to dictate to Quebec to recognize foreign credentials from such and such a country. In the end Quebec is responsible for its professional associations. As I stated, I would hope that if it can cooperate with European countries, it can also work with Canadian provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ms. Chow, you have only three minutes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you.

Going back to the question I had about Nairobi, Minister, you said there is no more room in that visa office. I suggest that you turn that swimming pool that is in the embassy into a place where you can process applications. It's too cold in Nairobi to swim, and the swimming pool is empty all the time anyway. You have a lot of refugee claimants, or children of families of Canadian refugee claimants here, who are desperately trying to connect with their parents, their mothers. They wait for five years, even eight years in some cases. They come to the Nairobi visa office, and what greets them? A swimming pool. So I'm sure you have room to put a few more staff in there to assist some of these folks who are desperately trying to connect with their families in Canada. These are children, for heaven's sake.

The case I was just talking about is that of a 12-year-old kid with a mom here. There are sad stories all the time. In the refugee camps, you can't wait for two years, four years, five years. It's dangerous.

Next week is refugee week, Mr. Minister. Can you please look into this situation? I know we're talking about the supplementary budget. Surely out of the $39 million that we are approving--well, $41 million in total, minus the vote--surely in all of the supplementary estimates you can put some of the resources toward helping, in a region that is a most desperate, poor, and dangerous place, to bring some of the people into this country faster.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

It's a long two minutes, Minister. You have to mumble a few words.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Just say yes.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, as the deputy minister said, the department is always prepared to look at reallocation of resources up to a certain point.

One thing that I have to point out, which the member may not be aware of, is that the Department of Foreign Affairs governs the overall management of our foreign service, including immigration officers, in our dozens of bureaus overseas. It's very expensive. I believe they assess a total gross sum of approximately $800,000 for the first year to situate a foreign service officer abroad. It means that every time you add a Canadian visa officer, the cost in the first year can be approximately $800,000 or more.

There's demand everywhere. Mr. Karygiannis would have us add a whole lot more in Colombo. I'm sure everyone at this table could offer to me a suggestion of an office where we should put more personnel. The question of managing our resources in our missions abroad is a very difficult question.

Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I take the member's point very seriously. As it relates to the slightly demagogic point about the swimming pool, you know, I'll take a political risk in defending this by saying that we ask people to go abroad for two or three years, in sometimes very difficult circumstances, to live in places with few or no amenities. The fact that our diplomatic families who are working in Nairobi, for instance, have a place to go on the weekend that is safe, with their children, where they can actually have a little bit of family time or something I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think it is unreasonable to provide a basic level of amenities to the thousands of Canadians who, quite frankly, sometimes risk their lives in very difficult places abroad, or to provide them with some quality of living.

I would not want to convey to our foreign service officers in any ministry that we should strip away from them the very few amenities they have to enjoy with their families.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, Mr. Manchanda, and Mr. Fadden. I thank you all for coming today.

Mr. Fadden, I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

Witnesses, you're now excused. Thank you very much.

Shall the supplementary estimates carry?

CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Department Vote 1a--Citizenship and Immigration--Operating expenditures and the payment to each member of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada who is a Minister without Portfolio or a Minister of State who does not preside over a Ministry of State of a salary not to exceed the salary paid to Ministers of State who preside over Ministries of State under the Salaries Act, as adjusted pursuant to the Parliament of Canada Act and pro rata for any period of less than a year--To authorize the transfer of $14,585,526 from Canadian Heritage Vote 1, Appropriation Act No. 1, 2009-10 for the purposes of this Vote and to provide a further amount of.........$36,289,071 Vote 5a--Citizenship and Immigration--The grants listed in the Estimates and contributions--To authorize the transfer of $22,848,962 from Canadian Heritage Vote 5, Appropriation Act No. 1, 2009–10 for the purposes of this Vote and to provide a further amount of.........$3,000,000

(Votes 1a and 5a agreed to)

Shall I report the supplementary estimates to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

This meeting stands adjourned to the call of the chair.