Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 11th, 2009

[Sandra Forbes]

It doesn't work for that group of people, for sure.

The thing that strikes me, too, is that our understanding is that the new rules were intended to help lost Canadians gain citizenship and to stop people who don't have a commitment to Canada.

The only thing I could think of with adopted children was that perhaps there's a fear that older children would be adopted into Canada for convenience reasons. That's the only thing I could get my head around.

The issue with that is that in order to adopt a child you have to demonstrate a genuine parental relationship. So in fact, those children are not being allowed into Canada for that reason. It doesn't make any sense. There are very few older adoptees.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Forbes.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to adopted children, no matter what process was followed during the adoption, could we not settle the matter by simply considering them to have been born in Canada?

[Sandra Forbes]

Yes.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Depending on the mechanism used during the adoption, some children are considered to have been born in Canada, whereas others are considered to be foreign-born. That is the problem. In my opinion, the very nature of adoption is such that we look at adoptive parents like biological parents, in practical terms. I totally agree with that.

However, I have some reservations about the rhetoric concerning second-class citizens. In my opinion, if we establish that a line must be drawn somewhere, it follows that some people will not be able to pass down their citizenship. Let us suppose that Ms. X, who is pregnant, enters Canada as a tourist. Her child is born prematurely and receives Canadian citizenship. Ms. X goes back to her country of origin with this child. The child, who remains a Canadian citizen, later marries a woman from his own country. They have children together, and those children believe that they are Canadian citizens. That should not be possible.

Do you agree that people should not be able to pass down their citizenship to their descendants indefinitely?

[Sandra Forbes]

The issue here, though, is that in Bill C-37, adopted persons are identified specifically.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

In my opinion, adopted children should be considered to be Canadian-born. That would solve the problem. However, I think that this rhetoric about second-class citizens is unfounded. Indeed, at one point or another, someone will not be able to pass down his citizenship, and that will be legitimate. According to those who espouse this rhetoric, that person will also be a second-class citizen.

In your opinion, is citizenship a right that belongs to parents or to the child?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Anybody can answer.

[Allan Nichols]

I'll go back to a point that I tried to bring up as well. We believe that citizenship can be applied to an individual who can demonstrate significant ties to their country whether they be first, second, or third generation. Both my children were born in Japan. They're growing up in Canada, but if my daughter were to have a child while she was travelling in the United States and come back to Canada, that child would be second-generation Canadian.

Now, it is conceivable, albeit unlikely, that the child then, my grandchild, could be travelling somewhere else and have another child unexpectedly. That child would be a third-generation Canadian. If we're saying that this third-generation child cannot have Canadian citizenship, that's not taking into consideration any ties with Canada even if they may in fact grow up in Canada and be educated here. If they're going to school in France or Geneva and they have a child, can we say then that they are not Canadians because they're getting educated abroad?

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

So you think that it is not a matter of whether Canadian citizens intrinsically have the absolute right to pass down their citizenship. It is more a matter of whether we have a certain attachment to the country when our children are born.

[Allan Nichols]

I would agree that is certainly one way to look at it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Nichols.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Andrew Bilski, you hadn't finished your submission. You had a few more lines?

[Andrew Bilski]

No, I'd basically finished. Nothing important was left out, thank you.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Okay.

Nina came into Canada as a landed immigrant.

[Andrew Bilski]

Right. She's naturalized.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That was because that was before Bill C-14 came in.

[Andrew Bilski]

It was before 2007. It was in 1999.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So had you brought her in as a Canadian citizen---

[Andrew Bilski]

She would now be facing this dilemma.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

You granddaughter or grandson might not be Canadian.

[Andrew Bilski]

That's correct.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

If that were the case and Nina became a famous journalist and was stationed in China, for example, like a second Jan Wong, if she happened to have a baby there, then that baby wouldn't be Canadian. Am I correct?

[Andrew Bilski]

Had she come in through the direct route, yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So that's absurd. No one could justify that. I know that the adoptive parents lobbied heavily during that period to say they needed to come in as citizens, because sponsorship took quite a few years and during those years they didn't have the rights of a Canadian citizen. I remember that big lobby campaign, and the Conservative government said you're absolutely right. That's why the first thing they did--I remember Diane Finley--was to change the bill. Everybody was celebrating and saying this was great. I said it was great. Everybody said it was great without knowing that now they've messed up.

I'll put that problem aside.

Allan Nichols, I was in Japan, Tokyo, Beijing, and Shanghai with the foreign affairs minister for a few days, and at that time there were several meetings with very successful business people, people working and doing a lot of business, employing a lot of people both in Canada and elsewhere. Foreign Affairs hosted this dinner. It was interesting that after the dinner I had several people come up to me and say they were really worried because if they had a kid there, they might actually have to leave, go home, and stop the business so that they could have their child in Canada. They were telling me how absurd it is because it really limits their business. They are Canadian. They have Canadian firms here.

Is that something you're hearing now, that they're really worried?