Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 6th, 2009

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Operational details I usually leave to the experts.

[Claudette Deschênes]

We're aware of some of those issues and we're trying to see what we can do. Really we're not looking at opening another centre for them, but we are looking, in our modernization, to use maybe other government centres that could assist. We also want to look at the need for people to come to pick up their permanent resident cards and at whether there is a way we could possibly do it differently, so that applicants wouldn't be inconvenienced by having to pick them up.

Also, over the summer we put more staff in so that people wouldn't have to wait as long.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

You are not paying their parking tickets yet?

[Claudette Deschênes]

The Financial Administration Act makes that a little difficult.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Bevilacqua.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to take this opportunity, Mr. Young, to welcome you to our committee and to your first question.

Minister, we have spent a lot of time in this committee looking at process, whether we're talking about the refugee system, the immigration system, or about the time visas take. One of the things I think this committee and government in general is not dealing with, which I think is a big issue, is the status of recent immigrants to Canada. They are overrepresented in the employment rates of the country, overrepresented in the poverty rates of the country, overrepresented in the underemployed. To me, this is a very important issue to which to dedicate time, for this committee as well as for this government.

It is going to require a pan-government approach. This responsibility can't simply be yours. This is an issue that is going to involve the human resources department, the Department of Finance, and the minister—indeed, cabinet. It is a very important issue.

If we are going to welcome people to this country, we need to make sure that the dream we sell as a country abroad can be realized when they get here. For example, recent immigrants are three times more likely to lose their jobs during an economic downturn. From June 2008 to 2009, the unemployment rate dropped, I believe, 1.9%, but it was 5.7% for immigrants. When you look at the amount of money that immigrants spend on housing as compared with the general population, these are big issues. They speak to the fact that we are not maximizing the human resources potential of the individuals who come to this country. That can't be good news for the immigrants, and it's also not good news for our country.

I wonder whether a comprehensive strategy and a very holistic approach can be initiated by your government to address these key concerns that I have.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I entirely agree with Mr. Bevilacqua's remarks. I appreciate his framing this in a non-partisan sense, because it is not a partisan issue. In fact, the data indicates that for at least two decades, under successive governments and different parties, we have seen a decline in the standard of living, the rate of employment, the economic success of newcomers. This is an issue that really preoccupies me. Our government has tried to take some steps to assist in faster economic integration of newcomers, including our tripling of settlement funding in the provinces outside of Quebec to reach the Quebec level. We have much more robust language training available, job mentorship programs, and integration programming in general.

To give you one example, I made an announcement in Toronto three weeks ago about the HIPPY program which provides in-house integration services to stay-at-home moms and dads of preschool children. We're doing a lot more—three to four times more—in those programs than was the case a few years ago. But you're quite right that in and of itself these will not turn the situation around. Obviously foreign credential recognition is a big part of the problem, and we hope that we finally are on the cusp of serious cooperation among the provinces and between the provinces and their respective professional agencies to get faster, streamlined pathways to credential recognition. I believe we're getting there. I think the governments of Ontario and British Columbia have been taking some meaningful measures in that respect, as has Manitoba's.

I think overall, though, Mr. Chairman, what we need to focus on in our immigration program is newcomers who fit into the labour market opportunities that exist in Canada. Premier Campbell of British Columbia once said to me that we don't need more unrecognized engineers driving taxi cabs in British Columbia; that we have lots of jobs that are going unfilled and need newcomers who can come and fill those jobs. That's what we've been trying to do with the action plan for faster immigration and prioritizing occupational categories that are in national demand. I personally believe it's also what we've been doing by working with various provinces in expanding the provincial nominee programs, whereby people have a job offer when they get to Canada, so that there's no transition or underemployment or “survival job” time. A welder from Poland who arrives in Manitoba with a welding job is working that job theoretically the next week, paying taxes and being fulfilled.

So I think there have been some incremental improvements in immigration policy to more closely align our intake with our labour market needs. But I agree with you, Mr. Bevilacqua, that a lot more needs to be done. I would be very open to suggestions in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to talk about visas for Mexicans. Based on your own figures, in the two and a half months preceding the imposition of visas, 1,287 persons filed a refugee claim. Historically, however, 11% of claimants are genuine refugees. If you do a simple multiplication, statistically, approximately 141 persons are genuine refugees over that two-and-a-half-month period. And you're proud to tell us that only 35 of them filed a claim. Even assuming that those 35 are all genuine refugee claimants, 106 are missing, minister. There are 106 individuals from Mexico who, based on your own figures, are genuine refugee claimants and who were unable to file a claim, simply because they were unable to get to Canada.

What happens to those 106 persons, who are genuine refugees?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, Mr. St-Cyr seems to be suggesting that Canada may have an obligation to receive anyone from any country who wants to file an asylum claim.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

The IRB determined that these were genuine refugees.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, according to the UN, there are more than 10 million genuine refugees in refugee camps around the world. In Canada, in relative terms, we accept the largest possible number of all developed countries. This year, we are accepting more than 10,000 refugees for settlement in Canada, in addition to some 25,000 more individuals who have been accepted by the IRB.

Mr. Linklater, what is the overall number of protected persons?

[Les Linklater, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

It's about 30,000.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Some 30,000 individuals are protected every year, which is, relatively speaking, the largest figure in the world. If you're suggesting that we have to accept genuine refugees, potential asylum claimants from Mexico, why not accept those from China, Cuba and all the countries of the world? We are imposing a visa obligation on 142 countries. If we have to eliminate that obligation for the Mexican so they can file a claim, why not do it for the other 141 countries? Are you suggesting that Canadian taxpayers are required to accept tens of millions of potential asylum claimants in the world?

That's ridiculous. We must offer the victims of persecution a humanitarian settlement system as part of an immigration system for which we have established guidelines. We accept genuine refugees, as determined by the UN. Our asylum system is very generous and we must maintain it. However, I don't agree that we should eliminate the obligation that asylum seekers from all countries must obtain a visa—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think Mr. St-Cyr is trying to jump in here.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Minister, it was you who conducted a campaign throughout the summer and justified that decision by saying that there were false claimants from those countries. That's the government argument that was used. But now you're proud to announce that finally there are fewer claims from those countries. That's for sure because those people can no longer get here. It's somewhat as though you were saying that there have been fewer divorces since we abolished marriage. Obviously not all countries needed visas.

What is a major concern for the people of Quebec is the tourism industry, for example. A lot of Mexican visitors chose Montreal, which is a beautiful city, as well as Quebec City, with its European aspects. In addition, compared to the United States, a country which is nevertheless close to Mexico, those visitors didn't need visas.

You've made a decision that has had a collateral effect on refugee claims since people simply can no longer file them. Did you analyze the impact that decision would have on the tourism industry?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

In fact, we see that there are still thousands of travellers coming from Mexico, nearly the same number as last year. We haven't noted that their numbers have declined significantly.

This situation represents costs for the voters of Mr. St-Cyr's riding. In fact, the Government of Quebec demanded that we do something to solve the problem of false asylum claimants arriving in Quebec. In Canada, the vast majority of asylum claimants from Mexico have settled in Quebec. We believe that the cost of each case to taxpayers is slightly less than $30,000, in this case $29,000. Since the visa imposition, the decline in the number of false asylum claimants from Mexico has represented approximately $37 million. That mainly affects Quebec taxpayers.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

They aren't all—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We're talking here about money that couldn't be allocated to the social program needs of Quebeckers and Canadians. All governments have an obligation to act responsibly toward their taxpayers. I'm happy to say we've managed to save Quebec taxpayers approximately $40 million.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Time's up on this issue.

Ms. Chow, you're now on the air.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You're a good chair--fair.

Instead of going after those who are exploited, will you go after the criminals first? In other words, will you bring forward changes on the middle people, the consultants who are unscrupulous? Would you do that first, and remove those people from the system before you change the refugees' IRB set-up? Because if you don't do that, you can have a new system, but I'll guarantee you that those folks who are out there preying on the most vulnerable will continue to find loopholes, and they will again counsel people to put in bogus claims, etc.

So what is the priority? Is the priority to go after those who know the law and deliberately exploit it, or just to teach people to lie, or to go after those who really don't know the laws and who are just told that if they do this they could get into Canada and be able to...? In many cases, those people end up working for very low wages, and their status is in limbo and they are not necessarily having “a good time” because they are paying back the funds they owe those middle people.

At the end of the day, who actually gains from it? Not necessarily those who you're talking about, who are here trying to jump the queue or whatever. It's the middle people, who end up making $5,000, $10,000 per refugee claim.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I don't disagree, Mr. Chairman, and I don't think it's a dichotomy. I don't think it's either refugee reform or improved regulation of ghost consultants and intermediaries. I think we need to do both, and I'm committed to doing both.

Ms. Chow is right. There is a connection. I wouldn't overstate the connection. We don't have reliable statistics on this, but from everything I've seen and read, a lot of asylum claims are made on the basis of bad advice, and sometimes commercial advice, but not all of them. So we need to fix both.

When we come forward with a package of refugee reforms, everyone will see that it's going to take a certain period of time to actually implement a new system. I hope we can move a little more quickly on the issue of stricter regulation of consultants, but let's be clear about the issue of ghost consultants. It doesn't matter how serious the penalties are or how vigorous our monitoring and enforcement resources are; at the end of the day there's money to be made, and there will always be, I regret, ghost consultants exploiting—

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

But they should at least be regulated. Right now, there is no regulation. Anyone can set up shop.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I don't disagree. I'm just saying we can't eliminate it. We can reduce it, but we can't eliminate it.