Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2009

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much. I think your answer is fair and gives a clear picture of the situation.

As an engineer, I am one of the 300,000 professionals whose activities are monitored by the Office des professions du Québec. I always say that if I had been required to take an engineering exam at the end of my degree, I would probably not have remembered everything I learned during my first semester.

I have a more general question for all of the witnesses.

We have heard a great deal about titles. It is well known that in may fields, including engineering, a person does not need to have a title to practise his profession. However, discrimination still remains a big problem in the hiring process. The Journal de Montréal investigated this problem. The same curriculum vitae was sent out, but in one instance, the candidate's family name was Tremblay, while in the other case, the family name was Mohamed. And guess what? Mr. Tremblay was called to more interviews than Mr. Mohamed.

The Bloc Québécois has recommended that, for starters, federally regulated industries adopt the concept of an anonymous curriculum vitae. Human resources officers would delete personal information such as the name and age of the applicant, and any other information that would identify the person's origin, and leave only information pertaining to training and qualifications.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have a minute left, sir.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Do you think that a tool like this would facilitate the integration of these persons?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Anybody can reply.

[Yves Beaudin]

It's certainly an idea that is worth exploring. If the concept were properly used, it would prevent a lot of racism, if I can use the expression. Basically, as long as foreign diplomas are validated to ensure that...

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Ms. Sadiq, thank you for coming here on behalf of a lot of the medical graduates in Alberta. I'm particularly interested in your analysis of how there's really a big need for doctors, yet there is not enough practicum or internship.

Would federal investment funds through the Government of Alberta be the kind of incentive that would produce more internships in hospitals? Is this an area that is needed? Can you expand on that recommendation?

[Shahnaz Sadiq]

You have asked a very good question. It has been a burning issue recently.

We had 66 residency positions allocated to the Alberta IMG residency program. That was reduced to 40 this year. So some people who already have their LMCC certification--the certificate you get from the Medical Council of Canada after meeting all the requirements--cannot get residency positions. It is like a bottleneck. All of these people are trying to get through the neck, but only a few of them get through it.

I think that's a big step. If we had a federal grant, these issues could be dealt with and the number of residency positions could be increased. That certainly would be helpful.

The other point I would like to make is that not everybody needs a two-year program of training for family medicine. It could be customized according to the capabilities of pre-assessed candidates. With all the vigorous exams they have to go through and the language exams they have to take every two years to stay in the system, it costs a lot of money and there is a lot of frustration.

If those things were dealt with, it would certainly be helpful.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

What would be the best forum in which to deal with it? Is it some kind of federal or provincial forum? Each province has a different number of residents in different hospitals, etc. In what way do you think the federal government could take a leadership role, aside from having incentive grants in the ministry of health to expand residency, for example? How do you see that happening?

[Shahnaz Sadiq]

It basically boils down to having more preceptors. The residents have to be attached to a preceptor. If those preceptors are not available to take residents with them for the training, that reflects the shortage of preceptors. That's also a burning issue. The more preceptors there are, the more residents can be accommodated.

Every program has preceptors. They are the medical physicians who give the training on an ongoing basis. The residency goes two months here and two months in all the various disciplines, but they are attached to a preceptor. Maybe two or three residents are attached to one preceptor.

If they can't take more than one or two residents and 30 residents are a burden, and if there are not many preceptors, that reflects how the residency positions are going to be given. If there aren't any preceptors, there are not going to be more residency positions. That boils down to, again, having increased incentives to recruit community physicians as preceptors so that there will be more preceptors to take more residents.

All this obviously needs funding, and I think that's where they have to play a role.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That is where the federal government can come in, right?

[Shahnaz Sadiq]

Yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So there could be a program where the federal government, specifically in the medical field, since we need doctors and nurses, can take a leadership role and work with the provinces to find family physicians or different hospitals to increase the residency, and also work with the colleges to examine the whole notion of whether we in fact need the two years, depending on where the doctor is coming from.

I've heard of doctors whose degree is from Pakistan but they have practised in England or the U.S. for quite a few years, yet coming to Canada they are still required to take all that kind of training.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're out of time, Ms. Chow, so could you come to a question?

Do you have a brief comment?

[Shahnaz Sadiq]

I really appreciate that there is a common awareness of these issues. I think that needs to be dealt with efficiently by the federal government playing that role.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Wong.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are directed to Ms. Swedlove. First of all, thank you very much for coming, and especially for looking at non-regulated occupations. Your organization also provides workshops for industries on how they can recognize foreign credentials, because we have to remember that after the recognition of credentials, these people still need to be hired. The hiring bodies are important.

These people can be sitting there looking for jobs, but if the industries are not ready to take them in, they still cannot find jobs. This has been brought up by our other panellists as well.

Can you talk more about the challenges that industries face in this regard, matching the skills of these foreign-trained professionals, especially in non-regulated occupations? Also, how do you suggest the industries overcome those challenges?

[Wendy Swedlove]

That's a role that some sector councils have taken on quite heavily. Those with huge shortages who have availed themselves of the temporary foreign workers program have worked with their employer community to understand the challenges that are faced by a temporary foreign worker from another country. They first help those employers to identify and bring those folks over, but they also help them to integrate effectively into their workplaces. Many sector councils have developed tools for employers to help them understand the nature of diversity in their workplace and figure out how to deal with it and effectively integrate those foreign workers into their individual businesses. That's the biggest challenge.

From a tourism perspective, many of the very small employers in the tourism industry think you need to have Canadian work experience to be effectively employed in their workplace. We've developed a tool that suggests that what they're more worried about are communication skills, an ability to work with computers, an ability to interact with a Canadian, and an ability to speak the language being spoken in that workplace. Those are largely essential skills and language skills, and we have processes in this country that can test both of these kinds of skills very quickly and very effectively. If we can allay the fears of those employers by working with the new immigrants in order to demonstrate that they have the skills, if a council can provide that service to both the immigrant and the employer, then I think we can facilitate the integration there. Many councils are doing that. Of course, there's lots more to be done.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Thank you very much.

You also mentioned in your presentation that you have been working with the foreign credentials office to provide a roadmap for foreign credential recognition in different sectors. Can you expand on that part?

[Wendy Swedlove]

The road map has been mentioned by several of the folks who have come here. It is a document that helps employers understand the immigration system and how to integrate a new immigrant effectively. The Alliance of Sector Councils is taking that road map on the road, if you like. Sector councils are bringing their employer community to those workshops in order to raise awareness of the value of new immigrants to their workplaces, help them understand the system that brings them here, and help them understand how to integrate them effectively.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

I'll pass to my colleague.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This is a matter of great importance to me because it applies to my constituents.

A lot of people don't know it, but in southern Ontario a lot of communities, including Oakville, have a shortage of doctors. There was a doctor from Pakistan who came to Oakville last year. It was in our community paper. He was delivering pizzas while studying for some very tough exams put up by the Canadian Medical Association--and they should be tough; no one is suggesting they should lower the standards. However, it's a difficult situation, and he was in a difficult situation. My understanding is that he's moved on and is practising medicine.

Mr. Beaudin, since most professionals are provincially regulated, can you talk about what your member provinces are doing to determine whether foreign credentials are equivalent, and in areas where they're not equivalent, what are your members doing to get foreign-trained professionals up to Canadian standards?

For example, it occurred to me that I don't know why this doctor from Pakistan in Oakville couldn't get a student loan to help pay his bills so that he didn't have to deliver pizzas in the meantime.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Go ahead, Monsieur Beaudin.

[Yves Beaudin]

I know of a similar case in Gatineau. He worked in a restaurant for several months, if not years.

I'll have to give you an answer similar to what Tim Owen told you this morning.

The work we do within the Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials is evaluation of academic credentials. However, in each province the regulated professions all have legislation authorizing them to protect their members, or work with their members, and license them, so in every province that responsibility belongs to the profession. Thanks to the agreement on internal trade, we can be mobile from one province to the other. It's really a responsibility of the profession itself.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Young, thank you.

I think that concludes our time this morning. I want to thank all of you for coming. You're all very good at what you do and I appreciate your contribution to the committee.

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.