Evidence of meeting #13 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Allow me to stop you here, Mr. Goodman. I do not doubt that you will try to find the most competent people possible, that you have good policies and that the public service has good policies.
My question is much simpler: will you implement an internal hiring policy based on the traditional public service or will you also be able to hire directly from the general public people who are not public servants but who may be qualified for this type of work?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
You ask a good question and make a very good point. The fact of the matter is.... It has been my experience—and I've been both a public servant and a Governor in Council appointee—that the best model is a model that includes people qualified, people who are selected from all parts, from everywhere, so the answer is that the positions will be open to all Canadians. But it's too early to determine how many positions will be available.
Conservative
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
I'll just follow up on what my colleague was talking about. The difference between now and after Bill C-11, if it passes Parliament and the Senate, will be that rather than through the Governor in Council it would be through the public service association. What role would you play and how would that change?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Very simply, the Public Service Commission is given the statutory authority--
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Okay. And that's delegated to deputy heads. I have the capacity of a deputy head, so I'm responsible for staffing at the board. I'm accountable for it. I have an executive director--
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
The executive director is the seniormost public servant at the board, Simon Coakeley, who is here with me today. The public servants report through to him and he reports to me.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Right. I'm talking about the order-in-council appointees, the board members.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
The board members currently report to me.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Right. I understand that. They are appointed by the minister, right?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
They're appointed by cabinet on the recommendation of the minister.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
That won't change for the.... Well, it'll be a new refugee appeal division and those persons will be appointed by order in council. The refugee protection division, which is the first level, would change. It would consist of public servants.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Right.
How do you plan to implement the audit done by the Public Service Commission that said there were hirings in the past that were not completely based on merit, etc.? That report came out six or seven months ago, I believe. I'm sure you've read it.
Do you have a work plan on how to address the recommendations and the fairly serious allegations in that report?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
First let me say that the board responded to the audit by the Public Service Commission and indicated it was prepared to comply with all of the recommendations. It is in the course of doing so and provides regular reports to the Public Service Commission. I'm going to ask Simon Coakeley to speak directly to it.
But the big problem in the audit wasn't that there wasn't merit; it wasn't demonstrated because there weren't documents on file to satisfy the person doing the audit. Now the Public Service Commission has conducted investigations to determine whether there was merit in certain cases. We have yet to get the final determination, but so far, so good.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Rather than drilling into that, because I only have seven minutes and I have another area that I need to question, would you be able to share the commission's responses to the audit with our committee?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Yes. I'd be pleased to do so.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Thank you very much. That would eliminate lingering doubt that came from the audit.
On a separate issue, because the timeline is now shortened, the first one being eight days, those, I would imagine, would be your protection officers, then the hearing would be your officer again, and the appeal would be the board member. On the first two processes, how would you help them facilitate finding counsel if they wanted it?
They have the right under the law to choose to have counsel, although it is very difficult to find counsel within eight days. They could get hooked up with people who give them bad advice, such as consultants who may not know much of the refugee laws. As a result, their case might get totally messed up. We have certainly seen those cases and they will probably happen again unless we regulate and legislate those consultants. What process or protocol would you put in place to at least reduce the likelihood that they are given terrible advice or wrong advice?
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Those are good questions, Ms. Chow, and I'll endeavour to answer them.
First of all, it's important to distinguish between the eight-day interview and the hearing. The eight-day interview is for obtaining information from the claimant necessary for the determination of the claim and for sharing information with the claimant about the process. So that's important.
We'll have to develop rules about the information we share, but I expect that it would include, for example, to advise them that they have a right to counsel. Now, under the act, the right to counsel, it's important to bear in mind, is not restricted to legal counsel, and counsel who are registered members of CSIC can appear before the board.
