Evidence of meeting #13 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Goodman  Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Julie Taub  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, Former Member, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Martin Collacott  Former Canadian Ambassador in Asia and the Middle East, As an Individual

May 6th, 2010 / 3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is meeting number 13 of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, on Thursday, May 6, 2010. For orders of the day, we have Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Federal Courts Act.

We have with us today as our guests the chairman of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, Mr. Brian Goodman; the executive director, Mr. Simon Coakeley; and the senior general counsel, Ms. Sylvia Cox-Duquette.

Welcome to you all, particularly Mr. Goodman.

I thank you for giving up your time and coming to help us with this bill this afternoon.

I understand you have a brief presentation. You have up to 10 minutes.

Thank you again for coming. You have the floor.

3:30 p.m.

Brian Goodman Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to discuss Bill C-11, the Balanced Refugee Reform Act.

I know we do not have a lot of time today but, since this is my first appearance before the Committee, I would like to take a minute to introduce myself.

I have been a member of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, the IRB, since 2001. Immediately prior to my appointment to the IRB, I was a member of the Consent and Capacity Board of Ontario. Before that, I was a senior public servant in Ontario, where I served as an Assistant Deputy Attorney General and Executive Lead for Agency Reform. Prior to that, I was Chair of the Rent Review Hearings Board and Acting Mining and Lands Commissioner. I have a Master's degree in Public Law.

Since joining the IRB, I have served in two of the Board's three divisions: first as a member of the Refugee Protection Division, then as Deputy Chairperson of the Immigration Appeal Division. I was appointed Interim Chairperson in March 2007 and I was formally designated in June of that year. I am honoured to be the chairperson of the IRB and to lead such a dedicated group of professionals.

Since its inception 21 years ago, the IRB has gained a reputation--both in Canada and around the world--for its innovative practices, the excellence of its adjudicative support and the high quality of its decisions. In fact, while in Ottawa last month, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Mr. Antonio Guterres, reiterated these sentiments. The IRB has also been recognized by the Federal Court of Canada and by the Auditor General for the thoroughness and professionalism of its training program for new members.

The IRB is Canada's largest administrative tribunal and our members make anywhere from 40,000 to 60,000 decisions annually. Our mission under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, as the committee knows, is to resolve immigration and refugee cases efficiently, fairly and in accordance with the law. We fulfill our functions through three divisions: the Immigration Division, the Immigration Appeal Division and the Refugee Protection Division.

While the Board is funded to finalize 25,000 refugee claims a year, as the minister indicated on Tuesday, the number of claims referred to the Board has consistently exceeded our funded rate for the past several years This high intake of refugee claims and an historical shortfall in the member complement have resulted in a large backlog in the Refugee Protection Division. Measures taken by the government last year to slow the intake, along with an increase in withdrawals and abandonments and enhanced productivity at the IRB, have stopped the growth of the backlog, which sat at 59,000 at the end of March 2010. And I am pleased to report that the IRB has recently reduced the backlog by approximately 1,000 cases, although I must stress that significant new resources will be required if the Board is to substantially reduce or eliminate the backlog.

The RPD is currently operating at nearly full capacity. As of today, it is one member short of its funded complement of 127. This is in addition to the 37 GIC appointees in the Immigration Appeal Division and the 30 public servant decision-makers in the Immigration Division.

All of our decision-makers receive extensive upfront training, mentoring and ongoing professional development, legal support, and country-of-origin and claimant specific research.

The work of an IRB member is difficult and demanding. It frequently involves giving testimony regarding torture or human rights abuses, and decisions are life-changing for the refugee claimants and their families. These factors, combined with the volume of work, result in significant pressures on our members.

I am proud of the way that IRB members continue to meet or exceed the expectations set for them. I believe that our success in this regard can be attributed to the practices, procedures and tools we have put in place at each stage of a member's career. It begins with the selection process, is reinforced during the training and integration phase, and continues throughout the entirety of the member's mandate.

Now I'd like to speak specifically about the proposed legislation, Bill C-11. As this committee knows, the IRB has no role in policy-making, as this is the responsibility of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, but I want to assure you that we have been consulted appropriately during the drafting of this legislation on all aspects that affect the mandate of the IRB. I also want to reassure you that the IRB will implement any resulting legislation professionally and effectively.

While we're proud of the work we do as part of the refugee determination system in Canada, the fact is that the public has lost confidence in the refugee system for reasons beyond the control of the IRB. The minister spoke about this on Tuesday.

The current system is in need of reform--the entire system--so that refugee claims can be heard and determined more quickly, and unsuccessful claimants can be removed more quickly, all the while maintaining procedural fairness. Bill C-11 is how the government has chosen to seek an improved system.

The main elements of the proposed system that impact refugee determination at the IRB include the requirement that a board employee conduct an information-gathering interview on a date fixed by the referring CBSA or CIC officer, in accordance with the IRB rules to be developed. At this interview, a hearing will be scheduled in accordance with the IRB rules, to be conducted by an RPD public servant decision-maker.

If a refugee claim is rejected by the RPD, all claimants except those from places or classes of nationals designated by the minister would have a right of appeal on the merits on all questions to the IRB's new refugee appeal division, RAD, staffed by Governor in Council appointees. The RAD would receive new evidence and, in certain circumstances, would hold an oral hearing. In the event that a negative RPD decision is upheld on appeal, appellants would have the right to seek leave for judicial review of the appeal decision from the Federal Court. The RAD, in addition to upholding an RPD decision, could substitute its own decision to avoid having it sent back to the RPD, or in rare cases may return the case for a rehearing before a new panel.

Members of the new RPD and the RAD, whether GIC appointees or public servant decision-makers, will be selected through a process that ensures they are suitable and qualified. They will benefit from a similar high level of ongoing training and adjudicative support as is provided to decision-makers at present. I also fully expect that we at the IRB will continue to find creative ways to make the system work in the most efficient way possible.

The IRB will remain steadfast in its commitment to high-quality decision-making and will continue to maintain the high standards we have set for ourselves. Above all, our thoughts are never far from the people whose lives depend on the decisions we make, as well as the safety and security of Canadians.

The IRB will deliver, to the best of its ability, on the requirements of the legislation as determined by Parliament, and we will do so within the timeframes given and within the budget allotted, fulfilling our mandate to resolve cases efficiently, fairly, and in accordance with the law.

In closing, I would like to say to the committee that, as it can appreciate, there are still many questions that need to be answered as we prepare for implementation after royal assent. We will have to develop rules and procedures, develop staffing strategies to meet the new requirements, and determine our fit-up needs, to name just a few.

Now I'd be pleased to do my best to try to answer any of your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you again for coming, sir. We appreciate you and your colleagues and the experience you have in assisting the committee to make recommendations to Parliament. As you know, we will have one round of seven minutes for each caucus.

Mr. Karygiannis will be the first person to ask you questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Good afternoon, Mr. Goodman. I really appreciate the fact that you and your colleagues are here.

Sir, I realize that you've been a member of the IRB since 2001. You've been there through two governments and you've seen the levels of applications, as well as the number of board members that you have had and what the balance has been.

Am I incorrect to assume that in the early stages of your career with the IRB there was a backlog of cases and extra members were appointed in order to deal with the backlog?

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

Extra money was allocated for the appointment of those new members.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

That's fantastic.

In 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005, the IRB was chugging along and processing at about 127% capacity in order to deal with the backlog. Am I correct?

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

Yes, that was with new resources.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

From 2006 to 2008, you took in 87,767 cases, while the IRB processed 52,500 cases.

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I'm sorry, but what were the numbers you gave?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

In 2006 to 2008, you took in about 87,000 cases and you processed about 52,500.

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I don't have the figures directly in front of me.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

But I mean roughly. That means you were processing 59%. Was this because the IRB did not have the staff? Was this because the IRB was hindered from doing its work? Or is this because the IRB did not want to do its work? What was the case between 2006 and 2008 such that the IRB did not function at its full capacity?

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

Well, I can tell you, sir, it's certainly not that the IRB didn't want to do its work or didn't try to do its work.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Okay.

3:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

The fact of the matter is that, as the minister indicated, two things happened over that period of time. First of all, the number of refugee claims continued to increase dramatically. Second, it of course took some time for the new government, following the implementation of a new selection process for GIC members, to establish the process and to then decide on new appointments and reappointments.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Goodman, I would ask you, sir, to provide this committee with the numbers of applications--if you don't have them handy--between 2001 and 2008, the number of number of refugee applications that were done, as well as the number of members that you had along the way.

Because in looking at those numbers, sir, I don't think there was an excess of applications in 2006, 2007, or 2008. I have looked at those numbers myself, and it was the same numbers of people that were applying since the beginning of the decade. If you can give us those numbers—

3:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I'd be happy to do that, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

—it would be greatly appreciated.

Sir, if I were to put it to you that members were not appointed between 2006 and 2008 because the government wanted to drain your resources in order to create a backlog, would I be wrong?

3:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I believe so. Yes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Okay.

Did you have as many members? You stated a couple of minutes ago that you didn't have as many members in 2006, 2007, 2008.

3:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

That's right.

But you're attributing an intention behind the government's failure to appoint and reappoint members during that period of time, or a sufficient number of members. Certainly some were appointed and reappointed over that period of time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

How many members were you short in 2006, 2007, and 2008?

3:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

I don't have the figures in front of me. I'll provide those to you as well.

I understood that we were here to talk about Bill C-11, so that's the only reason I don't have them with me.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

That's fine.

You probably have a good memory of the board and what was happening. If I were to say to you that you were staffed at about 70%, would I be incorrect? Was it at 80% you were staffed?

3:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada

Brian Goodman

During what period, sir?