Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Martin Collacott]

If you're trying to find a marginal case, I'm not going to proceed further.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Just a second. Here we go again. Both of you are speaking at the same time. I'm not going to stop the clock. I've warned you before.

The translators have a difficult time translating when both of you are speaking at the same time.

Mr. Karygiannis, you're an experienced member of Parliament. You know that.

You may proceed.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Sir, if you want to ramble on, that's fine. I thank you. I disagree with you on Turkey and I'm going to leave it at that. When the Ecumenical Patriarch cannot be replaced because Turkey has put pressure on them, and right now the Armenian Patriarch cannot be voted again because Turkey has put pressure on them, sir, I tell you, Turkey is not a safe country.

Ms. Taub, I want to go back in history with you to the 1960s. A safe country, the United States, had the draft dodgers. A lot of them escaped to Canada. We have something like 60,000 or 70,000 of them and their offspring and so on and so on. Yet the United States today is involved in a war that is not sanctioned by the United Nations. Some of the people from the United States have come up here. This committee has passed a decision that says we should allow people who are seeking refuge in Canada, who are fleeing a draft situation because they had to go to war against the United Nations.

So how do you define the United States as a safe country vis-à-vis our history with the draft dodgers and vis-à-vis the history that we had them coming up here?

[Julie Taub]

I can just reply to you that if you knew your history you would know that there was a compulsory draft for the Vietnam War. There is no compulsory draft in the United States today. It is not the same situation. There is no comparison. That's number one.

Number two, I consider the United States to be a democracy, just like Canada.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Was the United States a safe third country in the 1960s?

[Julie Taub]

I wasn't a member of the refugee board and I wasn't a lawyer.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So I guess you forgot your history...?

[Julie Taub]

Oh, I know my history quite well. They were welcomed. They were welcomed with open hands.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Karygiannis, you know--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Chair, you know what? I object because you're cutting me off all the time.

[Julie Taub]

Mr. Karygiannis...this is his history--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Karygiannis, you can object all you like, and I'm not going to stop the clock until you hear what I have to say.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You don't have to stop the clock, sir. I'm asking the witness some questions--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, no, I--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

--and if you, sir, don't like the questions--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sir--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

--that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sir, I'm asking you to be courteous to this witness.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I am being very courteous.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, you're not. Try to improve your ways.

Proceed, sir.

Thank you.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Historically, in the 1960s the United States was a democratic country. Am I correct?

[Julie Taub]

And it still is a democratic country.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

But we allowed thousands of people, because they were fleeing the draft, to come to Canada.

[Julie Taub]

We allowed thousands of people because it was politically motivated.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Politically motivated how...? Because they were coming to--