Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 18th, 2010

[Nigel Thomson]

Allow me to respond.

As was indicated in the response to Mr. St-Cyr, the contribution loan amount of $500,000—there was a grant and a loan—was dependent on CSIC reaching a minimum membership number of 3,000 members, at which point the $500,000 became repayable under the contribution agreement. The contribution agreement, as you know, was an agreement signed with the Government of Canada for the establishment of CSIC, including a large number of provisions, such as setting up our bylaws, complaints and discipline, compensation funds, and so on.

So that amount is still outstanding to the government, because we have not yet reached the membership levels. Not to make this a circuitous point, but we have not reached the membership levels, obviously, because a number of ghost agents have chosen to operate without becoming members of the society and because the provisions of the law allowed that to happen.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Would you prefer, then, that your body be similar to non-share corporations such as the Canadian Bar Association? Is that the route you want our committee to go? Really, there are two choices. One is that ultimately the government is in charge, and the minister is in charge. The other is that the members form a non-share corporation, which is like the Canadian Bar Association. It is either/or. You can't do both.

Your submission says you don't want the minister to have the power, so then do you want us to go towards the non-share corporation? That is, by the way, the recommendation of the committee.

[Nigel Thomson]

Let me be clear. With regard to the minister's power, our concern is only that this bill gives the minister the power to change the regulator without referring to anyone.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So you want a non-share corporation?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sorry, I think.... Finish what you're saying.

[Nigel Thomson]

We're quite happy with the proposed structure--that we be a Canada part II corporation--and particularly with the amendments to the Canada part II legislation, which will now allow further rights to members. We think this will be very workable. We are already working on new bylaws for the part II corporations, which would come into effect in 2011, as we all know, and we hope they will effectively increase members' ability to participate in the society.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Thomson.

Mr. Young is next.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming here today. We really appreciate you taking the time.

My first question is for Mr. Qayyum. In your report, you say you support the provisions of Bill C-35 to “close legal loopholes that have enabled ghost agents to thrive”, that for too long, these disreputable individuals have exploited these loopholes to take advantage of people. In fact, we know that ghost agents have caused a lot of human misery. Lord knows if they pay their fair share of income tax or what else they do. Then you expressed concern a little bit later that the regulatory review has cast a shadow over the profession, endangering the livelihood of fellows who work hard to provide service.

But my conclusion, based on my past experience, is that an improved system will give the public more confidence in consultants, and that it will enhance their chances of making a living. For example, if you look at organized real estate in Ontario, people used to make jokes about real estate agents and so on, but it's really a dynamic organization, and it has grown as the credibility of the agents has grown.

I just wanted to share that thought with you. I don't know if you have any comments on that. Please go ahead.

[Imran Qayyum]

I do, Mr. Young. Thank you for that question.

When we talk about the regulatory review, we're talking about the review of designating a regulator for immigration consultants. The issue we've seen is that ghost consultants, as we know, thrive on misinformation. Unfortunately, the reports we're getting from our fellows overseas in some of the most vulnerable markets, such as China and India, are that ghost consultants are using the minister's various public statements against CSIC, or they're twisting them to be against CSIC, and they're sayting to their clients, “CSIC is about to be closed. CSIC is done, so you don't need a CSIC member. Have your immigration done by me. I can get you the forged documents. I can get you the fake marriage licence, whatever, whatever.”

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Would it be safe to say that's a temporary concern?

[Imran Qayyum]

Well, hopefully it will be, until this is all sorted out and CSIC is redesignated.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Thomson, you support the changes that address the issue of the ghost agents. Could you just give me a summary, so when I go out of here I'm very clear on what you do support about the bill?

[Nigel Thomson]

We definitely support the idea, the minister's proposal, to strengthen the legislation to shut out ghost agents from representing clients in any part of the immigration system. That is absolutely crucial. It's something we've advocated for with government for a number of years and have made a number of submissions on. We're also very supportive of the idea that the regulator should and can be more responsible and responsive and accountable to government. That is certainly something that we in CSIC would be prepared to see happen. We're certainly prepared to see the minister bring forward changes requiring a reporting provision to government. We think that is actually a very positive thing.

One of the problems, to be honest, Mr. Young, is that though I believe this committee and others have heard testimony from a number of individuals, there really has been no program review, no performance audit of CSIC, which would reveal whether or not we are an effective organization.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you. I interrupt only because my time is a little limited.

[Nigel Thomson]

I understand. I'm sorry. I tend to go on.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Do you think the membership in the governing body for immigration consultants will increase, and hence the financial viability of your organization?

[Nigel Thomson]

We're certainly very hopeful. As I mentioned, we're tracking more than 1,600 to 1,700 ghost agents in our intelligence system. We're certainly hopeful that a very significant number of those individuals can be reformed and they will join the regulator. If the legislation is such that they have no other option but to conform, we would certainly hope, as Monsieur St-Cyr has indicated, that we would be in a position to perhaps double our membership.

[Patrice Brunet]

I would add that we also see an increasing number of young students getting interested in the profession and actually following the cursus. So we're not just talking about the ghost consultants joining the fray but also individuals in their twenties actually making it a profession, following the cursus and then being accredited.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

My understanding is that the government will be addressing funding in a general way, or perhaps in a little bit more of a specific way. Have you ever seen a bill, a regulatory bill, introduced under similar circumstances--where the funding was included in the bill?

[Nigel Thomson]

No. That is an extremely fair comment, Mr. Young, and I would agree with you.

Our concern about enforcement, to be honest, stems from years of advocating with government to increase the enforcement efforts, to look at the resources devoted to enforcement, and to change the law. We appreciate, however, that it is not part of a normal bill to bring forward funding provisions. That's something that's done in the budgetary process within the envelopes. We understand that would have to be brought forward by CBSA and Immigration.

We did think it was important, given our concerns over the years, to express our ongoing concern about this issue of enforcement.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Qayyum, can you tell us just a little bit about the training that you offer the consultants to raise the standards and public confidence?

[Imran Qayyum]

Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Young, for that question.

We offer various types of courses based on CSIC. CSIC, as the regulator, sets the educational standards. Our courses have to meet those standards at a bare minimum.

The different courses we offer include information on, for example, the Quebec immigration system, and how to file various applications. Under the Canada-Quebec accord, as you know, Quebec gets to choose its own immigrants. It has complete sovereignty on who immigrates there. We offer courses that enhance an immigration practitioner's ability to better serve their clients. We have courses on the Immigration and Refugee Board, the immigration appeals division, the immigration division--

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

What specific training do you have on ethics?

[Imran Qayyum]

Ethics is done through CSIC because that's mandatory.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Can I ask you, what is your greatest challenge in helping to train consultants?