Yes.
Evidence of meeting #29 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #29 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
I would agree with that, sir. It takes time for an organization to grow and mature. The Law Society of Upper Canada has been around for over 200 years, approximately. We have been around for six and a half and I think we can compare ourselves very honourably, sir, to the Law Society of Upper Canada.
As I indicated earlier, we have strict money requirements, strict bank accounts, and rules of professional conduct. There are discipline departments. It would be a shame to have all that wiped out. We have professional seminars. We have compensation funds, as I indicated, to recompense victims of crime committed by unscrupulous consultants.
We have strict requirements. You cannot become a member of the society without passing exams, which I had to do. All of us did. They weren't easy, I can tell you, sir. They were quite difficult. You have to pass a membership exam today and take a membership practitioner course. The people governing CSIC today have credentials in the governance field. One of them--I think it's John Ryan--has a governance accreditation from a recognized educational institution in Ontario. They have a board of directors. There are officers and staff who are available.
In my respectful submission, and as you've indicated, evolution should take us where the society will be as time goes on.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Let me ask you both about one particular program. You haven't talked about it and I wonder if it exists. Are you spending some of your time, money, and energy on any sort of public relations campaign to steer people away from non-CSIC members right now? Is CSIC doing this?
5:05 p.m.
Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual
Yes. Very, very big campaigns have been done by CIC, Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Those campaigns have been very promising.
In my own private practice, I have noticed that for several months now, I have been getting calls from people who find us—not me personally, but the organization—in the newspaper, and even outside Canada. They contact us because they want to get the right person, the right consultant.
So it is a source of pride for us to see that these campaigns are working.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Tencer, would you like to make a comment?
5:05 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
I wonder if I might add a short comment, sir.
5:05 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
CSIC has gone out to the media through newspapers and radio ads, and even on its website it has a short video about how the public should not go near any unlicensed consultants--or unlicensed persons, because by definition they can't be called consultants. There has been an extensive public media campaign in which CSIC has gone out and told people to not go near unlicensed persons because they don't have the qualifications, the professionalism, and the skills that we as consultants have.
The answer to your question, sir, is that there's been a very extensive public relations campaign out to the world by way of CSIC's website, newspapers, and radio. Only licensed people should take people's money. Vulnerable people who want to come to Canada must be looked after by licensed and skilful members, as we are, as Ms. Adam is, and as other licensed members are. So that's the answer.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Okay. Thank you very much.
I have one last question for both of you. This isn't the question, but this leads up to the question.
Mr. Tencer, are you a lawyer? You're not a lawyer?
5:10 p.m.
A voice
No.
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
I'm sorry? I didn't--
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual
No, I'm not.
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
As I said earlier, I'm a member of the law society--I'm sorry, I'm a member of CSIC, although I have a law degree.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Okay. Let me ask you about lawyers. Under this legislation--and before this legislation--lawyers seem to get a free pass. You know, if you're a lawyer, you don't need to be particularly skilful or experienced in immigration law or refugee work or anything else.
In many other countries in the world, such as Australia, for example, you're required, if you're a lawyer, to pass certain immigration examinations before you can practise in that field.
I guess the question is for both of you. Is that a problem now and how would you resolve that issue?
Perhaps Ms. Adam could answer first.
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual
Right.
For the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, it is unique in its very technical nature. For someone who studies law, and my daughter is a law student so I know exactly whereof I speak, there is no program specifically for immigration. There are only options, things like that. So a lawyer who comes onto the labour market and wants to work in the field of immigration has to work with a consultant or a lawyer who is already practising in that field, if they want to learn the trade and practice it.
A lawyer has to take the same route as a consultant. Obviously, there is certainly [Inaudible—Editor], but in any case, what a consultant can do is limited. When a consultant has gone to the Immigration and Refugee Board, the well-known IRB, they can no longer go to the federal courts, for proceedings at the federal level. That is our limit. Then you have to work with lawyers so they can take over the case and continue handling the cases.
That's how it works.
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
I graduated from Osgoode Hall Law School in 1972 in Toronto with my law degree, LL.B.. I can tell you quite emphatically that there was no such thing as an immigration law course, at least in those years, 1972, 1976....
I knew zero about immigration law after completing law school, until CSIC came along. I'm a proud member of it now. As a result of seminars, reading the act, and CSIC's education and conferences, I've honed my skills. I can truly and emphatically say as well that because we practise immigration and refugee law every day, day in, day out, which I do in my office...I have the immigration texts on my desk, which I refer to. The lawyers, because they're lawyers, have the right to practise immigration and refugee law because it's law by definition.
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
The problem is they've never taken an immigration—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Thank you, sir. We're going to move on, sir.
Members of the committee, we're going in camera after Mr. Young has had his questions.
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at the wrong name. It's Mr. Uppal.
I apologize, Mr. Young and Mr. Uppal.
Mr. Uppal, you have the floor for up to seven minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to both of you for coming. We've heard a very passionate plea for CSIC. Thank you for bringing that to us.
The fact is that we're in the process of making changes, and some pretty significant changes, to your industry. They are changes that, looking at the bill, would protect consumers. They would protect legitimate consultants. They would protect the integrity of the immigration system as well.
These are changes that in general all parties here in Parliament support. We may disagree on some of the details of the bill.
I want to speak to you about the bill that's in front of us today and is basically the reason you're in front of this committee. I'm going to ask both of you the same question. I'll ask Madame Adam to answer first.
What is the difference between you, as a CSIC member, and an unregistered consultant?
5:10 p.m.
Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual
I want to say first that I have fought to get where I am today and I did it at great sacrifice. I not only had to become a member in good standing of the CSIC by taking extremely difficult exams, but I also had to make financial and other kinds of sacrifices to keep up my knowledge through continuing education. We have talked about this already, and a lot of people have told you this. You can't disregard it. We are obliged to do this under the regulations, and I am very proud of this.
We have talked about the CSIC today, but that organization could have had any name. I am happy with the present approach and regulations. What distinguishes us is that some people evade the regulations. They aren't members, they don't pay anything, they have absolutely no training, they don't take the courses or training we have had to take.
Mr. Rafferty made a connection earlier between lawyers and us. We have really learned how to practise this immigration-related profession. That is why I have got to where I am today.
5:15 p.m.
Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual
Thank you.
Your question, if I understand it, is about the difference between an unlicensed person and a licensed consultant. I think I've answered part of that. The unlicensed person takes advantage of vulnerable people who need to run away or want to immigrate to Canada. These unlicensed persons are not knowledgeable because they didn't study like we did. We paid money to take courses and to pass exams. We are at a certain level of knowledge and skill that these unlicensed persons cannot possibly have.
As for moneys and where our client's money goes, the bank accounts are regulated. These other people could take the money and run away and they've done that. It has been in the newspapers, in the media. We are licensed and therefore are held to a strict standard. None of us would have been licensed, Mr. Uppal, had we not proven to CSIC that we know the refugee law and the immigration law.
There are always complaints.... A disciplinary department is hanging over our heads, which is important for any professional body.
Our knowledge allows us to render a proper professional service, which I'm very proud of, because I am where I am today thanks to CSIC.
As I said, lawyers do not take immigration law in law school; I never did when I was there. I learned everything through seminars and conferences, as Ms. Adam has stated.
Therefore, an unlicensed person is now covered in this new legislation, Bill C-35 in that it's an offence for them to get involved with persons in the area of immigration and refugee law.
The only comment I want to add now is that I'd like to have some serious teeth put into this bill. Unlicensed persons who are caught practising immigration and refugee law ought to be strictly fined, with maybe even a jail term to deter them, because they're taking advantage of vulnerable people around the world who want to come to Canada.