Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Catrina Tapley]

That's the figure for Ontario. It was about $111 million for Ontario, and I think across the country it was about $200 million.

[Deborah Tunis, Director General, Integration, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Yes.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Let's stick with Ontario. That seems to be the basis of the discussion this morning.

It was $111 million in Ontario in 2005-06. It's $340 million in 2011-12.

Do you think we are better able today, through our organizations, to deliver services to immigrants and refugees who come to this province? Or do you think we were better at delivering those services in 2005-06?

[Catrina Tapley]

No, we are, I think, better able to deliver those services now. We've also seen—I think Ms. Edlund can speak to this as well—an expansion in the capacity of groups and organizations to deliver those services over those years.

[Dawn Edlund]

What I can say on this call for proposals process in Ontario is that just over 80% of the service provider organizations that we want to negotiate a contribution agreement with are folks that we have been funding already. So we see a stability in the sector. We see a capacity in the sector to deliver the needed services in the locations.

We also see, with just under 20% of new service providers coming online, a renewal of the organizations that provide these services.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Is that it?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's it.

I have a brief question, perhaps as a result of questioning from Mr. Oliphant.

The funding changes--or realigning, or whatever the wording we're using—is based on numbers, provincial numbers? Is that what this is all about, that some provinces are increasing and some provinces are decreasing in immigrants and refugees? That's what it's based on?

[Catrina Tapley]

That's correct. The funding--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Oliphant asked a question about needs, and he's right; I think we all have areas where there may be language differences, more so in some areas than others, and economic differences, more so in some areas than others.

Also, being from Ontario, I can tell you that there are areas in the Peel region, for example, where the number of immigrants has gone up. Maybe it's down in Ontario...and I believe you; one of you has a chart somewhere that shows the numbers going down in Ontario, but--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

It's appendix A.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Appendix A? Thank you, Ms. Chow.

But there are areas in the province of Ontario where the numbers have gone up. As Mr. Oliphant has said, there are areas where perhaps needs have either stayed the same or have gone up.

Maybe it's getting back to the formula question that Ms. Chow asked.

Could you comment on that?

[Catrina Tapley]

I think it will be a two-part answer between Ms. Edlund and I.

First, on the formula overall, yes, it's based on landings by province and on a three-year average. What we take into account is that refugees have higher needs than other immigrants who land. So if there is a higher proportion of refugees who land in a province, that's reflected in the formula and in the funding that's provided.

On the second part, how we allocate funds intraprovincially, or how we would allocate funds to service provider organizations based on where immigrants have landed within the province, for example in Ontario, is something that we have tried to do this year.

Ms. Edlund, I don't know if you'd like to comment further on that.

[Dawn Edlund]

Well, what we know from the call for proposal process is that there was over $700 million requested...for our eventual pot of money of $346.5 million. Even for those organizations that put in strong proposals and had robust governance and management and so on and which we were confident could deliver the settlement services needed, the total of what they would have wanted to have was over $600 million.

It's clear, in that kind of situation, that you have to make tough choices about how you're going to be delivering the services in the most cost-effective fashion. So if it turns out, in one geographic area, that we have three or four same-service provider organizations providing similar services, with four different sets of administration costs and overhead and so on, if you can, in that set of circumstances...and if there is a lack of, say, smaller class sizes, while in another area we have waiting lists for language classes, you want to balance that out and smooth the way. So our first principle, of meeting the needs of immigrants, making these tough choices, can actually be met.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We'll go to Mr. Trudeau.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

I'd like to go back to something the government side said and that you agreed to, that we are better at immigration settlement services now than we were five or six years ago.

That is true? You confirm that?

[Catrina Tapley]

I would say that the increase in funding has allowed us to work with service provider organizations and to expand capacity and build capacity--

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Excellent. So over the past five or six years, the increase in funding has had a tremendously positive impact, both on the immigrants and on the communities.

Which government signed that five-year increase in funding? Or on what date was the original agreement signed?

[Catrina Tapley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I....

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

It was November 21, 2005, under a Liberal government led by Paul Martin, for hundreds of millions of dollars of increases over the next five years.

We are now at the end of that five years--

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We need order, please, Mr. Dykstra.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

We're now at the end of that five years, and even though this government is cutting millions of dollars from settlement funding, they're still spending, as you've said, as the minister has said many times, millions of dollars.

Can I then conclude that you believe, and you've demonstrated, that settlement funding works, that it's better to train and help integrate new arrivals with language training than to have them, for example, on welfare or social assistance or not contributing to the economy? Settlement funding does work, in your assessment.

[Catrina Tapley]

Yes. We believe it's better that immigrants integrate into society and are employed gainfully, yes.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

And it's not just better in a moral sense but better in an economic sense. It makes sense to give them the tools to contribute as opposed to just being passive and receiving.