Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Just a minute, Mr. Minister.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

He's obviously selected the years that are most favourable to his argument.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you can't interrupt someone when you ask a question. A point of order maybe, but give the minister a chance to look at what you've given him.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, Mr. Chairman, what I'll do is refer Mr. Wrzesnewskyj back to my previous testimony on this. I'd be happy to send him a letter once again confirming the increase between 2005 and 2009 of permanent resident landings from the Ukraine.

Secondly, the assertion that these are, as he suggests in a nefarious tone, secret targets is absurd. In fact, the government tables before Parliament our overall levels plan; it's public domain. The department then develops mission-by-mission targets.

What Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is referring to is, I believe, from an access to information request on the preliminary target, which was accessed through the access to information process. Those targets are subject to change over the course of the year.

But what I find frankly the most offensive about the nature of the question is the notion that we—elected officials, politicians—should be picking over every country in the world, in every one of our 60-some missions around the world, and picking what the numbers ought to be.

Mr. Chairman, this must be a process led and determined by our professional public service. They establish the targets based on their expert knowledge of where the resources are, what the inventories are, what the past demand has been, what future demand is likely to be. None of us, not even Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, has all of that information at our hands.

What I do know is that the total inventory of people in the FC4—parental and grandparental—category for Ukraine was, at the end of last year, 163 people and that we have been processing significant numbers. And of course the department will continue to monitor that and ensure that we have roughly equal processing times for all of the streams of immigration on a global basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay. Mr. Minister—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I would just finally point out that there were 2,300 permanent residents from the Ukraine in 2005 and 3,097 last year. By my count, that's an increase of 700 from the previous government to this one.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay. We want to avoid a debate here, but.... Mr. Wrzesnewskyj?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Minister, thank you for attempting to talk out the clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, that's not appropriate.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Now, you have talked about these targets for Poland. For 2011 the target is five; last year from Poland there were 158 parental and grandparental reunifications. You've just also tabled a document that shows ranges—and I believe these are based on November numbers—for family class reunifications of between 45,500 and 48,000. In fact, this access to information document, which came after these numbers, shows a quota of 38,900, which would be, in fact, a decrease of 12% from what we had last year.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have less than a minute.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Minister, you have misled when it comes to the numbers on immigration levels from Kiev; you've misled in terms of staffing cuts in that particular embassy. You've said the truth is A; in fact, we find out, it's the exact opposite.

How can Canadians believe any of the numbers that you have now provided us with?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's statement underscores precisely why we should leave the assessment of targets to the officials and not to the politicians. Everything he just asserted is wrong. He is basing what he just said on an access to information disclosure on a preliminary operational target assigned only to overseas missions, for example.

He is wrong. The actual operational target for FC4 out of our Warsaw mission is not five; it's 60, which is in keeping with the kind of demand we're getting in Poland in the FC4 category. Last year, we only received 65 applications. So we got 65 applications for parents and grandparents in Poland last year, and our operational target is 60 this year.

Secondly, he suggests that the planning range tabled in Parliament for immigration, and particularly family class, has somehow changed from 58,500 to 65,000.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You know we're—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, it has not changed. What he's referring to is a target for overseas missions. He's not including the inland processing of files, which is not included in that access to information, Mr. Chairman. That is the planning range. We will meet the planning range, as we did last year. He doesn't like to accept the fact that in fact family reunification numbers are going up under this government.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're three minutes over the time. I'm sorry.

Monsieur St-Cyr, I'm going to be tougher on you. Go ahead, sir.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I would like to talk to you about refugees' access under the Interim Federal Health Program to drugs in Quebec pharmacies.

First of all, I want to say that I'm pleased that a temporary agreement has been reached, that pharmacists are once again dispensing service and that talks have resumed with them. That is a positive development. That said, I think we both agree that a definitive solution must be found and an agreement concluded with pharmacists. I think everyone agrees that this agreement should cover the terms, procedures and administration process, and not affect the coverage provided as such.

Also, the spokesperson for the pharmacists needs to be determined. When the appeared before the committee, senior officials often told us that they wanted to negotiate on an individual basis with pharmacists. However, the Quebec Association of Pharmacy Owners, the AQPP, which represents Quebec pharmacists, has made it clear that it wants to be directly involved in these talks.

I think that is the right approach to take, for three reasons, the main one being that the AQPP is the union representing pharmacists and their bona fide representative.

Other agreements have already been negotiated between the AQPP and various departments, including, I believe, the departments of National Defence, Public Safety, Veterans Affairs and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. The federal government already recognizes this union as the bona fide representative of pharmacists. So then, reaching an agreement with this union would not be precedent-setting.

The best reason, in my estimation, is that an agreement like this would be binding on all AQPP members, that is on the 1,800 owner pharmacists in Quebec. A refugee living in Dolbeau or in Manicouagan would thus receive the same service because all pharmacists would be required to comply with the terms of the agreement reached with the AQPP.

In my opinion, the department would be much better off negotiating with one single party than separately with 1,800 pharmacists.

Where does the department stand on this matter?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Obviously, Mr. Chair, I'm concerned about the situation. We are committed to working with the AQPP to resolve these concerns about the Interim Federal Health Program. We are working with this body to find a solution. We are doing everything we can do ensure that refugees eligible for IFHP benefits have access to the drugs prescribed by their doctors.

As you know, the claims process has been improved with the introduction of an electronic filing system. Pharmacists are now reimbursed within three weeks. Pharmacists can access all information online.

Talks are continuing at this time between my department and the AQPP. Ultimately, the onus will be on each individual pharmacist to register online with Medavie Blue Cross, our claims administrator, in order to be reimbursed for services dispensed and costs incurred.

I see no reason why pharmacists would not register, not dispense services to refugees or not be reimbursed. We have a system in place that works well in the nine other provinces. To our way of thinking, it is the best possible system for pharmacists.

We hope that they will take their professional responsibilities toward their clients seriously.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Are you aware that the AQPP already has a very good system in place that works well for clients of the departments of National Defence, the RCMP, Veterans Affairs and Indian and Northern Affairs? Agreements have already been reached with the AQPP in Quebec. They work very well and even favour these departments.

Once an agreement has been reached with a single body, everyone must comply with it. It's a good deal for CIC.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There is a fundamental difference between the Interim Federal Health Program and other medical programs administered by federal government agencies and departments such as the RCMP, National Defence and Veterans Affairs. These programs supply health services. They operate with their own hospitals and their own doctors. They are health care suppliers in the same way that the provinces are, in that they deliver services directly.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're going to end this; I'm sorry.

Thank you.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

At Citizenship and Immigration Canada, we provide insurance.

We're not a service provider but an insurer.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Uppal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming to talk to us about settlement funding.

Minister, you talked about greater equity of settlement funding across the country. You said that the funds should follow the immigrant, that they do now follow the immigrant. Considering that, can you tell us about the formula by which Quebec is funded? It seems that they get much more per immigrant than any other province. Is that formula fair? Is it fair that Quebec gets more per immigrant than any other province?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you.

Yes, the new settlement funding formula that I've described—and I detailed the criteria in response to Ms. Davies' question—applies to the nine provinces outside of Quebec.

Quebec established a special bilateral agreement with the Government of Canada in 1992, I believe, the Canada-Quebec immigration accord, which among other things established a formula for federal transfers to Quebec, notionally to provide for settlement services delivered by the Government of Quebec. Just to give you an example, in 2005 the funding to Quebec was $177 million, and this upcoming fiscal year it will be $258 million; that's an increase of 46%.

Quite frankly, the formula is not based on how many immigrants are landed, nor necessarily what their needs may be. The formula is based on the growth in federal government spending minus debt service costs. It has no ceiling, but it does have a floor. So if federal government spending were to be cut, as it was in the mid-1990s, transfers to Quebec for settlement services would stay even. But as federal spending goes up—and in the past many years it's been in the range of 6% or 7% a year—so too do the increases in settlement services to Quebec.

Do I have that right, Mark?

Okay.

It's basically an automatic escalator, and some people ask me whether that is fair for the other provinces. My answer is, you can come to your own judgment about that, but I can only deal with what I have the power to deal with, and that is a bilateral agreement that can only be amended with the consent of the Province of Quebec.