Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Could you send that to the clerk, sir?

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

How is the time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

It's at five and a half minutes.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

I'm wondering if you have any data on what streams most of the provincial nominees come from. Are they temporary workers, foreign workers, or students? Is there any breakdown?

[David Manicom]

I don't think we have statistical data on individual streams, of which there are about 50. I think I mentioned earlier that 55% of the certificates nationally in the PNP programs are issued on the basis of a job offer. The labour market is the key driver.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

[David Manicom]

With 50 programs it is difficult, and because they are provincial programs, our systems don't identify which provincial sub-stream they are in. So statistically, we couldn't do that very easily.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

“Subsidiarism” is a bulky word, but it basically means pushing the decision-making down to the lowest level of appropriate government. It seems that's what's happening here. We're seeing the results in terms of less fraud, fewer rejections, efficiency, happy applicants, and happy governments.

Has any of you had the chance to observe such a program active in other federal countries such as the United States or anywhere else?

[David Manicom]

“Observe” would be too strong. There are state nomination roles in Australia that I don't know the details of. As far as I know, states in the United States don't have any influence on immigration decision-making. The provincial nominee program, as it stands in Canada, is quite unique. As I say, I don't have all the details on the Australian program; they do have some state roles, but not nearly as substantial.

Remember, it's a very efficient program from the federal government's point of view, because the provinces, through the 97% approval rate, have demonstrated that they're doing a good job of streaming through their own processes. Of course, there are applicants who are refused by the provinces. They are selecting the individuals. But when they get to the federal government, it's an effective program and therefore efficient from the taxpayer point of view and others. We're not spending a lot of federal resources refusing applications.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

As far as taxpayers are concerned, if we can do our job by getting out of the way, then we're doing our job the way they would want it to happen.

Is there any further comment on overlaps with other federal programs, things that might impede the success of this, whether they be immigration or non-immigration federal programs?

[David Manicom]

I think the two that come first to mind are business programs and programs for students. Some of the provinces have student streams, and we have the relatively new Canadian experience class, which is growing but not as fast as we thought it would. The business programs have been complicated because there are federal business programs and the provinces have developed various very different types of business programs that at times have, in the opinion of the federal government, crossed the line into the path of the investment sphere, which, by regulation, is reserved for the federal government. We've worked with provinces and corrected those issues.

With regard to international students, I think what we are in discussion about with the provinces is to look toward ensuring that since they all indeed want to maximize their provincial nominee spaces, by and large they're not nominating individuals who would qualify under the Canadian experience class, and therefore preserving their nominations for other individuals, since someone in the Canadian experience class living in Saskatchewan is probably going to reside in Saskatchewan.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Perhaps I may finish my last question. The whole premise of the question was that PNP faster processing times are seen as an advantage over the federal skilled worker program. If the federal skilled worker program processing times are actually decreasing, as ministry officials have told us, do you see a decline in PNP?

[David Manicom]

No.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You don't see it having an effect on the PNP program at all.

[David Manicom]

When the provincial nominee programs were developing, I was very often engaged in discussions with the provinces at a director level at the time. They were quite happy that the federal government was very slow and cumbersome in processing skilled workers, because it was a competitive advantage for them. At the present time, remember, the provincial nominee programs are all growing fast. They're mature. There's no indication they're having any difficulty meeting the volumes they're accorded. They all want more. So I think at this time, when the federal government improves its processing times for federal skilled workers, I would not expect to see a negative impact.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You're not losing your competitive advantage in this point, basically.

[David Manicom]

Again, if we work well together to make sure that our programs aren't overlapping, then their program will be filling different needs.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

I'll go back to the international students.

Given the similarities between the PNP system or stream for international students and the federal skilled worker program for PhD students, this is a situational question. One of my constituents walks into my office and asks me about which program they should actually apply for and what's the best avenue for them for retention or for staying in the country. What should I advise them?

[David Manicom]

First of all, only a couple of provinces have student streams. I know that British Columbia has one.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Ontario does. That's what I would be faced with.

[David Manicom]

I don't know provincial selection criteria by heart. There may be some individuals who meet both. There may be some individuals who meet one or the other. If someone meets the....

Okay, I'm sorry, there are student programs actually in quite a few provinces—about six.

As far as processing times in the Canadian experience class and through the provincial nominee program, I think they'd be similar. If you are someone who happens to meet the criteria in both of them, and they do have different criteria—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Absolutely.

[David Manicom]

—then I don't see that there would be any obvious reason for me to recommend one over the other. Depending upon the fees and the provincial program, overall it might cost more, but they vary as well.