Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 26th, 2012

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'd encourage you to invite the ambassadors of Hungary and perhaps the European Union to address those issues. They tell me that it's largely an economic draw. Incomes in Hungary are a fraction of what they are here, and there is information in certain networks in certain communities that people can massively increase their incomes and quality of life by coming to Canada.

There's no doubt that some of these asylum claimants coming from Europe are facing very difficult circumstances. If they want to have access to our asylum system.... However, most of them don't show up for the hearing.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

I really want people to try to stick to the time, please.

Now I would like to turn it over to Madam Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I would like to thank the minister and all the witnesses for joining us today.

As Ms. Sims said, a compromise had been found on Bill C-31, dealing with a fair reform program. It is unfortunate that Bill C-31 targets refugees to the same extent as smugglers and associates them with the smugglers.

Mr. Minister, you must know that, under the Geneva convention on refugees, the illegal nature of the method used by victims to flee persecution is not an obstacle to recognizing refugee status. Yet you have made it a major criterion in Bill C-31. Why?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madam, I don't agree with your comment because, under Bill C-31, immigrants who came here through smuggling will have access to the refugee system in Canada. So there won't be any restrictions for immigrants, refugee claimants who came here through smuggling; they can still have hearings before the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. They will have access to the same decisions as all the other claimants, notwithstanding the way they came or their country of origin.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

On many occasions, the European Court of Human Rights has condemned the states for failure to respect the rights of refugees. The Council of State has done the same.

Will these legal decisions enable you to give some serious consideration to the reservations brought up by experts on the concept of safe countries of origin and to reconsider some of the measures under Bill C-31?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes, but I don't agree with your statement that all experts are taking that position. I would imagine that you will hear from many experts, including lawyers and academics, who will appear before your committee during the study and who are in favour of speeding up the processing of applications from designated countries, and the designation process.

Actually, I have heard a fair bit of criticism saying that our reforms are not ambitious enough. So I would say that there are some interest groups that would like to see a system that will last for years and years to come. I personally don't think that this would work for genuine refugees or that it would allow us to ensure our system's integrity.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

If I may, Mr. Minister, the expert witnesses or the civil society witnesses who will appear before our committee will give testimony, and based on that, we will be able to establish the merits of this bill.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The point I am trying to make is simply that there are experts on both sides of the debate. The friends of the New Democratic Party are not the only experts.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

No, all experts are always welcome.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

We'll be hearing from everyone. Carry on.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I would like to go back to the effects of detention, which, as we have described, are devastating on asylum seekers and society.

In Quebec, the Centre de santé et de services sociaux de la Montagne, which is a parapublic service, has been successful in terms of alternative detention measures. Could your department use this experience as an alternative to the automatic detention provided for under Bill C-31?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with that program. If you have some information about it, I can consider it and discuss the matter with Quebec.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You still have 40 seconds.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Bill C-31 proposes a new definition for human smuggling. What is the reason for this new definition?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It means that the Minister of Public Safety can designate irregular arrivals, since, as I said, those people often don't have their documents because they were destroyed. We need tools to identify those people to be able to make sure that they are not posing a risk to the health and public safety of Canadians.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you, Minister.

Now I would like to invite my colleague Monsieur Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have five minutes.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, I get a lot of constituents contacting me. So I'm going to ask you an Etobicoke Centre question first and then I'm going to move on to Mr. MacDonald.

I often get complaints from seniors about benefits. The issue for them is the social services that refugee claimants are eligible for under the current system. What is being done to ensure that the benefits that refugees receive are as fair as the benefits that a lot of Canadians get? They have a lot of concerns that they're not getting the same treatment as people entering this country as refugees. Would you say it's fair, equal, or less than?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'd say two things. First, an urban legend is circulating that refugees generally get more income support than Canadian seniors. The truth is that resettled refugees can benefit from the refugee assistance program for up to a year upon their arrival or until they get a job in Canada. That's fairly modest. I think it's about $1,200 a month on average, depending on the size of their family. But I think that the perspective you've articulated, Mr. Opitz, is a reasonable characterization of the interim federal health program. This has been a program since 1957 whereby we provide federal health insurance for asylum claimants or protected persons before they get permanent residency.

As I mentioned, it's taken us several years to be able to remove failed claimants because of the endless system. In all that time, they have access to this federally insured health program, which has been providing supplementary benefits that are not typically available to taxpaying Canadian citizens, such as eye care, dental care, pharmaceuticals, and so forth. I think your constituents are right to wonder why someone who is a manifestly unfounded asylum claimant, who has arrived in an illegal smuggling operation, should be getting supplementary benefits that they haven't got access to after a life of paying taxes in Canada.

That's why yesterday I announced a new policy with respect to interim federal health that will ensure that asylum claimants do not receive benefits that are more generous than those received by ordinary Canadians in their provincial health systems, and which will end health insurance—except for critical care for public health reasons—to asylum claimants once their claim has been rejected, as a further incentive for them to cooperate with their removal.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm going to turn to Mr. MacDonald because my next question is more of a public safety one in terms of refugees and trafficked people. The system under which people come in, if they're smuggled, are often disguised as trafficking events. I saw this in Europe when I served there. I have a friend who served on civilian police training boards in Kosovo and places like that, and he has seen this firsthand and how people get manipulated, tricked, and sent to a country and then often are essentially enslaved through human trafficking, drugs, and things like this.

So when these events happen, often it's not about people getting out of the country to a safer place, but often about the smugglers and the traffickers who are benefiting from this, and it's worse for the people to arrive on our shores because they're being taken out of situations where they probably would have been safe and happy and now they find themselves in dire situations as well as having issues of health and criminality. Often, criminals have been here several times: been deported, returned; been deported, returned. Can you comment on some of those things? I know I hit you with a lot but I have very limited time, sir.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have a minute for your answer.

[Michael MacDonald]

I will be very brief.

You are correct. I think the way to approach this is to just generally talk about what we know about smuggling and what we've learned through various operations, through intelligence gathering and, let's face it, through experience.

Smuggling is not new. Smuggling and trafficking have been occurring for years. It is a worldwide business. It is a proven fact that it is a growing business. It is something that is done by criminals for pure profit, with no regard, or very, very minor regard, for the health, the safety and, quite frankly, the lives of the people who are in fact being smuggled. It endangers lives. As the minister has mentioned, we've seen deaths. Australia has experienced a significant number of deaths, with some of those deaths purposely caused by the smugglers themselves in regard to the people they were in fact smuggling.

Smuggling also brings threats to our country—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Could I just ask you to finish your sentence, please?

[Michael MacDonald]

Yes, absolutely.