Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 2nd, 2012

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

We're feeling our way here because as a new person and our esteemed vice-chair you are in the chair. Would it be more comfortable for you if somebody else took the chair while you're asking questions?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I had this conversation with Mr. Dykstra and had arranged that I could ask them from here. The timing is being done by the clerk, and I'll make sure that I will not take a second over.

Thank you.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

Maybe I'll answer the issue of the separation from parents.

We have very ancient knowledge about separation from parents to protect children from war. It began with the London bombing in the Second World War, with children being evacuated from London and separated from their parents doing far worse than those who stayed with their parents during the bombing of London.

Recently a study in Finland has shown that people who were evacuated 60 years ago to protect them and separated from their parents still have more problems than their peers who stayed with their parents during the war.

It does not mean that war is good for children. It means that parental separation can have worse effects, and they are very long-lasting effects, which may lead to depression, but with functional problems. We're speaking of chronic depression and anxiety, which has a high cost in terms of the daily productivity of these people.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

Please describe the conditions in immigration holding centres—this is for Ms. Cleveland—and why you say they are prisons.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

As I alluded to earlier, when an asylum seeker is detained, the first thing done to them is they are handcuffed.

Although they are not handcuffed during the time in the detention centre, if they ever have to go outside, for example to a hospital for medical care, they're not only handcuffed but also shackled at the waist and at the feet. They are also accompanied by a security guard. Indeed, many people told us they preferred to forgo medical treatment rather than undergo the public humiliation of being shackled and handcuffed in a waiting room.

On a day-by-day basis, there are uniformed security guards, cameras everywhere, and so on. But it's really in the small details. For example, a man arrives late at night and is detained. The next morning, at six o'clock, the wake-up time, he says, “Look, could I please sleep in? I'm really tired.” The security guard says, “No, it's six o'clock, you've got to get up.” The guy says, “I don't care. I want to stay in bed.” So he’s put in 24-hour, solitary detention. That's a prison.

I'm not at all saying that people are brutalized. Guards do their work in a professional manner, CBSA does its work in a professional manner. That's not the issue. But it is a prison, there's no doubt about it. Of course in Toronto and Montreal you have the immigration holding centre specifically for migrants, but elsewhere in Canada, the other asylum seekers detained are held in provincial prisons with criminals.

I'm particularly concerned about what may happen to the 16-, 17-, 18-year-olds who would be detained under this bill. Youths held in prisons are at serious risk for sexual harassment and sexual abuse in particular. That's a very great concern.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

Earlier we heard testimony from government officials that even under the current system, because of the shortage of detention spaces, there are people in provincial prisons on a daily basis.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

About 30% of asylum seekers are held in provincial prisons.

In British Columbia, Halifax, or anywhere except Toronto and Montreal, they're automatically held in provincial prisons.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. Cleveland, do you see some alternatives to the mandatory detention system being proposed under Bill C-31, and if so, could you expand on that?

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

The first system is the current system. I have many criticisms of our current detention system, but it does have a regular detention review, which is an absolutely basic judicial oversight. People are detained for reasons that are at least relevant, either for identity, security risk, criminality, or flight risk. Under Bill C-31, people would be detained for completely irrelevant reasons, essentially—for arriving in a group with false documents, or for administrative convenience because of a shortage of time. It's not going to get at security risks. It's certainly not going to get at the supposed bogus refugee issue, because that's not in the law, and in any case, it's not a reason for detention.

To stay with our current system would be our first alternative, and a very simple one, because people who are vulnerable can actually be released. That's extraordinarily important.

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

In the current system, we have a mean of 600 children currently detained each year in Canada. I would say that if you look at the changes in different countries of the European Union, people have moved away from child detention. There are family-friendly alternatives, where you can have a certain control and a sense of knowing where people are by having them report, which is a very good alternative for handling families in those situations.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

Sweden is an interesting model in that regard. It's a supervised accommodation, but it's run by social workers and it's very family-friendly.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much. I'm at my seven minutes.

Mr. Cotler, for five minutes.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Given your testimony this morning, particularly with regard to the mental health concerns and the consequences of detention, in what ways can Bill C-31 be modified to address the concerns you have both shared with us?

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

We think that both on the adult side and on the child side, if there were an amendment it would be about people who are vulnerable and are going to suffer long-term consequences.

Some people should not have to suffer detention, because they will become more vulnerable. We certainly include children up to the age of 18, pregnant women, and asylum seekers who are vulnerable because they have a severe physical or mental illness. We believe those people are going to be particularly affected by detention.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

Exactly.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Did you want add to that?

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

I just want to say that if you look at the experiences in Australia, for example, where you have extremely high rates of suicide and self-harm among asylum seekers who are detained under a regime that is very comparable to Bill C-31, I think that gives you a sense of how serious it can be for people who are already traumatized.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

The government has said that Bill C-31 will end up reducing costs. But in appreciation of your testimony and others, there are extensive costs associated with mental or physical health issues, and these can be exacerbated by reason of the detention of youth and pregnant women and the like. I know you began to go into it, but do you have some appreciation of what these costs might entail, having regard to the whole spectrum of fallout from this type of detention?

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

We are in the process.... I don't want to mislead you, but, for example, with a child who develops concentration problems, learning problems, and drops out of his studies, we have calculated that the cost is around $200,000 for Canadian society. That's extremely important.

We will calculate the cost of insufficient prenatal care and stress during pregnancy, because we know this affects kids. It will, for example, create hyperactivity problems, long-term behaviour problems, and obesity. There is a lot of research on that. Because these kids are Canadian, we need to have numbers for the cost to Canadian society.

I think it's very short-sighted to say we'll save money by not providing adequate care or environment to these people, but I hope we will come with numbers on that a couple of months from now.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have one and a half minutes.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'll try to make it a short question, because I think it's a short answer.

Did the government reach out to consult with professionals such as yourself, both to appreciate the consequences of detention in mental health terms and the costs associated with that?

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

That would be our main recommendation. We think the government should consult the association of pediatricians, the association of child psychiatrists, and Public Health in all Canadian cities. They are involved. They told us today that they are on board. They would be very willing to provide any advice to the government.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to Ms. James.