Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 29th, 2012

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

It's interesting that you said that, because part of this bill will remove the humanitarian and compassionate grounds that certain serious criminals seek after they've been asked to leave and they've gone through all the other avenues of appeal.

When I talk about serious criminals, I talk about human rights violators, organized crime war criminals. When I think of those things, the words “humanitarian and compassionate” don't really jibe with me. To have those things in the same sentence is, to me, outrageous.

[Julie Taub]

It's an oxymoron, yes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

We touched on the victims...and I know, Ms. Sytcheva, you're talking from possibly a different perspective.

I'm always surprised when people talk about the families of convicted criminals; they always leave out of the equation for the families of the victims. I think what this bill says to Canadians is that we're going to reduce the number of victims in Canada.

I want to ask a final question. With this bill, do you think we're going to see a reduction in convicted foreign nationals who commit crimes? Do you believe we're going to see a reduction in reoffending?

[Julie Taub]

I believe we will.

But I would also like to know what will happen to the others who have managed to stay here for years. Will this be retroactive? Will they now be deported from Canada? Will the Mugeseras leave? Will the Mahmoud Mohammad Issa Mohammads be required to leave as well? I truly hope so.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

May I ask how much time I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

One minute.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm going to very quickly turn my direction over to you. I'm sorry for not asking you more questions.

I was a bit concerned. You were talking about refugees coming to Canada, and because of the immigration process they're under stress and then they might turn to crime. Is that what you said?

[Irina Sytcheva]

That's not exactly what I said. I said the immigration process itself has a detrimental impact on people's mental health, particularly those who may come from war-torn regions.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

If someone has committed a serious crime in Canada, you believe they should not be deported, but can I ask why it is Canada's responsibility to take care of someone who is a foreign national and has been asked to leave this country? Why do you think it's Canada's responsibility and not the country they actually came from?

[Irina Sytcheva]

I can only speak from the cases I was seeing. A lot of times “serious criminality” is a term that's thrown about a lot. In the cases I'm seeing, people are not serious criminals per se. I think my friend cited a number of serious cases. We agree some folks should not be allowed to stay here, but for our population it's health issues.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I know you said causing a nuisance or a disturbance would not be considered a serious crime. I just want to make sure you're aware of that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. James.

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much, and I want to thank our guests as well.

I want to start off by saying that New Democrats recognize the need for an efficient and responsive judicial apparatus for removing serious criminals who are not citizens. In the kind of way-out cases that we've had cited here, we're not going to find that much disagreement across the table. We are willing to work with the government to make sure criminals of all backgrounds cannot abuse our appeal process.

That being said, we share many of your concerns—and I'm talking specifically to you, Irina—with the legislation before us today; namely, we worry about consequences, and we worry about legislation that is brought where the justification seems to be these way-out cases. When you try to formulate legislation in this manner, it leads, whether it's intended or not, to an impact on groups. In this case you're talking about those suffering from mental illness. A news report you may be aware of from the CBC that followed the introduction of Bill C-43 raised concerns that the legislation could unfairly punish the young and the mentally ill.

In the report, the head of the Canadian Somali Congress said he believes the new bill will drastically increase the number of young immigrant males who are deported without appeal, including Somali refugees raised mainly in Canada. He notes that many of these young men have little or no connection to the land of their birth. They grew up here. This is their home.

In another article published last year in the Toronto Star, immigration lawyer, Carole Dahan, notes that an additional problem is that it is not uncommon for immigrants, especially those from the Caribbean, to wrongly assume they automatically become citizens after a lengthy residency in Canada.

I actually had that conversation with a taxi driver in Toronto. He was quite shocked to find out. I said to him, “Do you vote?” He said, “No. I am a Canadian. I've lived here for many years.” I said, “No, there is a process you have to go through.” I gave him the contact information for his local MP so he could seek some guidance on how to do it.

Have you encountered this problem with the permanent residents your organization serves? Do many assume that because they have spent most of their lives in Canada they are Canadian?

[Irina Sytcheva]

Yes, actually, we see it all the time, particularly in certain immigrant groups. It's just an assumption that if you come into the country, and you live here a certain period of time, then you automatically become a citizen. What we try to do is educate people on the difference between permanent residency and citizenship, but even with that, I don't think there's enough awareness.

Another issue is that a lot of folks we deal with are crown wards, meaning they are oftentimes in the custody of CAS, and their citizenship application is never filed because there are so many other issues that are happening. We see relatively young kids who come into contact with the criminal justice system because they have an undiagnosed mental illness, and they are not able to receive supports. They accumulate a number of small crimes, get to the point where they spend months in jail, often on remand awaiting trial, and then they're up for a deportation order. It really comes as huge shock to them, because they never see it happening.

I didn't get a chance to explain thoroughly, but this legislation is going to impact those who are really vulnerable in our society. They need our protection.

Citing those sensationalized cases is useful if you're going to focus on just those. Our concern is we're casting the net too wide, and a lot of people—I speak from personal experience—are going to hurt. A lot of people are going to die because of the changes in this legislation, particularly in the communities and constituencies that my organization represents.

As opposed to my colleague here, I'm quite concerned about the proposed changes, and I would ask that the humanitarian and compassionate provision under clause 24 stay as it currently is under IRPA, without changing it down to six months.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

When I was a teacher, I taught law 12, and one of the things we used to always talk about was that an important part of our legal system here is the appeal process. The appeal is not an extra carrot. It's not something that is extraordinarily granted to you. The appeal process is part of the judicial process.

As you know, this bill would remove any discretion for a judge to consider the nature of the crime and the context in which it was committed, including potential mental illness in refugees from war-torn countries.

Can you tell us a little bit about the impact of war on mental health?

[Irina Sytcheva]

Within the war itself, the trauma is huge. I think people experience symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder years down the line. You can have flashbacks and it can be really incapacitating. At the same time, it's something that doesn't come through. You may have an individual who locks him or herself in a room for a number of days, sometimes months, and then they snap. They may experience an episode of psychosis and do something that brings them in contact with the law. At the same time, they are often not able to understand what the trauma has done, because trauma is a coping mechanism. You're trying to forget what happened to you. You're not able to process information, so you're not able to let people know that, “Hey, by the way, I'm experiencing X, Y, and Z because this is what I've been through.”

Having been through the trauma, or having been through a war-torn country, coming here and having the hope of finally having a good life for themselves and their families, and then having to go through the immigration system and the process.... My colleague here suggested that it's easy. We've seen the other side. It's not easy. Oftentimes people are not able to navigate the system. There is the inaccessibility of the language in which information is presented.

When you're dealing with mental health issues, one of the symptoms is cognitive capacity. They may not be able to process information in the same way as another individual, especially if they're experiencing symptoms or if they're experiencing side effects of medication. They may not understand what's going on with them. They may not be able to communicate what their needs are. They may feel they will be persecuted if they fully disclose what the situation is. That compounds the stress. We're talking about the individual, the criminal, but there's also the family and—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Regan, welcome to the immigration committee.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I hope you enjoy your stay here, and you have up to five minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

Let me begin by moving the motion that Mr. Lamoureux gave notice of last Tuesday, the 23rd. I think you are aware of that motion. I don't know if you would rather debate that at the end of this meeting, or perhaps the beginning of the next, of course, but I'll just move it.

I move that the committee undertake a study on the subject matter of the section of Bill C-45 that falls within the mandate of this committee, namely part 4, division 16, and report its findings to the House no later than Monday, November 5, 2012.

Mr. Chairman, how do you wish to deal with this?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

This is not a good time to do it, but it is your turn. You have the floor and the motion is in order.

We have guests here—

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I agree, and I—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

—but as far as it being in order, it is in order.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll hold it in abeyance, if I may, and proceed with questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.