Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 26th, 2012

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

We're here with a piece of legislation that is quite overarching. It is quite intrusive in some areas, and looks at taking away some significant due process rights.

When we're looking at legislation, our job as legislators is to make sure it is really explicit and that things like this are built right in, not going on an understanding that somewhere else this is clear. We're looking for clarity in this legislation.

This codifies what you say happens and what staff have told us. Therefore, I'm finding it very difficult to understand why there would be resistance to codifying in legislation something that occurs. If you don't codify it, then things can be expanded upon and go in different directions.

Here is something really basic when you think of rule of law or of presentation. If you talk about a particular case, especially in legal forums, that's what you want to be questioned about and that's what this says. We thought this was such a reasonable amendment that my colleagues across the way would be saying that they could see the sense and logic in this.

I'm still hoping they will take a few seconds to think this one through, because this is the kind of legislation that can give comfort, and it costs the government nothing because they're not giving anything away.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

We can go at this for a while, Mr. Chair, but I've made my point.

The government believes staff will do their jobs. We're not in a kangaroo court when these interviews take place. There are individuals, both legal and otherwise, who make determinations as to whether a person will or will not answer a question, or needs to or does not need to present information. Not only is it already codified in the CSIS Act, but it is actually part of the legal process that is undertaken on a regular basis.

While I appreciate my colleague's vigour, I do believe that her concerns are met under the current legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

All those in favour of this amendment?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I would like a recorded vote, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

It will be a recorded vote, Madam Clerk.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I'll be asking for a recorded vote on all the NDP amendments.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You'll have to do it each time, Ms. Sims, because I'll forget.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I will be there to remind you. If not, one of my colleagues will remind your.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We will proceed to page 4, which is a New Democratic amendment, a second amendment for clause 5.

Ms. Sims, could you read the amendment first, please?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I move that Bill C-43, in clause 5, be amended by adding after line 15 on page 2 the following:

(2.2) A foreign national who is requested to appear for an interview under subsection (2.1) has the right to appear with counsel.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Sims, do you have comments?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes, I do.

The Canadian Council for Refugees brought a further concern on clause 5 to this committee. In their submission, they said:

People applying for status in Canada are in a vulnerable position. All an officer needs is “reasonable grounds to believe” that the person is inadmissible on security grounds – in these circumstances, refusal to be interviewed and to answer all questions is likely to be enough to condemn the person. In some cases where the applicant is not represented by counsel, CSIS officers exploit the person’s situation.

The CCR goes on to recommend that clause 5 be amended to include a statement of the right to legal counsel when being interviewed by CSIS.

The intent of this NDP amendment is therefore to provide foreign nationals who are required to appear for a CSIS interview with the right to appear with counsel. We think the additional language is moderate and reasonable and we respectfully ask for the support of committee members for this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I would like to get a response from staff about the process under which an individual can determine his or her own choice as to having representation.

[Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin]

As it currently stands and as it would continue under this amendment, during the interview, a foreign national can already have someone present, counsel or another representative. The only matter is, however, that the representative will be asked to not participate in the interview process. Again, in cases where the CSIS interview is requested, it is in order to provide advice to an IRPA officer, whether it be a CBSA or a CIC officer, to make a determination afterwards.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Then, for the individual who is called to the meeting, what allowance or process is there for them to be protected? It sounded as if you were talking about the CSIS person sitting in.

[Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin]

The applicant can have someone present with them during the interview, whether it be counsel or some other representative. It's simply that the other individual would be asked not to participate in the interview.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

The other piece, which makes this somewhat redundant, is that the individual is already here on Canadian soil, and so the charter continues to apply. The individual has a right to counsel.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Shall the amendment carry?

The amendment fails.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Is it a recorded vote?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

We want a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, you can't ask for it after I have called it. You have to be snappy. We will do it this time, but if you ask after we have done the vote, we're not going to do it again.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you. I will be snappy.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We will do it this time.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.