Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 28th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I agree with Mr. Dykstra that most people who come to this country will be aware of their rights and the processes and apply for citizenship. However, I think there is a case to be made for young children who come with their parents. They just assume because they've grown up here from the age of three that they have become citizens. I know you're thinking that's hard to believe, but I've actually dealt with somebody in my office who, at the age of 20, did not know she was not a Canadian citizen. It's only when I started to make inquiries I found out that she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and yet she has no connections with anywhere else. I want to say that she was not involved in criminal activity.

We do have those instances and we also have lots of people who arrive here from some pretty tough situations. They haven't emigrated. The've come here as refugees from some very scary places. One person I talked to said, “Well, when I got my permanent residence I thought that was it, that I'm a Canadian now.”

I think there is a lot to be said and to be done.

I don't know if other MPs are hearing the same thing, but I'm hearing that it's taking longer and longer to process citizenship applications. I have a lineup of situations like that. In many cases, the cuts to services and the long processing times themselves play into putting somebody into a position where they could be deported.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Menegakis, we're on LIB-12.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In response to Ms. Sims—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I was afraid of this. Try to stay on the Liberal amendment. I let her go on, but be brief, sir.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I understand. I'd like to get my point across, if I may, with your permission, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

We're not talking about taking somebody's rights away. We are speaking about criminals.

Speaking specifically to the amendment, if someone is not a Canadian citizen and they've committed a crime, irrespective of how long they've been here, if they're not Canadians, they're not Canadians. We've heard testimony for and against. I can understand wanting to be compassionate with people who come to our offices, as Ms. Sims says. It might take them a while to become Canadian citizens. They're not criminals. Criminals don't come to my office saying, “I just committed a crime. I robbed a bank. I want to become a Canadian citizen. I wonder if I can do that on an expedited basis.”

I want to bring some semblance of reality to this. We're not talking about the average person who is a law-abiding citizen and we're sending them back to a country they don't know. We're talking about a criminal. They're going to go to two places, both they won't know. One will be a prison that they don't know, potentially, or they're going to go to a country that they don't know. Either way, they're going somewhere because they're criminals.

That's the point I wanted to make.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is in response to the comment from my colleague across the way with regard to the permanent resident who didn't realize she was not a Canadian citizen. I want to remind the committee that one of the benefits of Canadian citizenship is the right to vote. I'm wondering if that permanent resident realized she actually had never voted in a federal election to that point.

Besides that, when the Canadian Police Association was here, we asked specifically with regard to different acts or criminal behaviour, and a sentence of six months. They confirmed that a six-month sentence is related to a serious crime. We're not talking about someone who is jay-walking across the street. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We need to have some order.

Ms. James is speaking.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

For someone to think that being a permanent resident is really citizenship, and they have never voted, I don't understand how I can hear this coming from the member opposite as a reason that we need this type of amendment. I'm not going to support this amendment either.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. James.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chair, quite often the government will come before committee and will say that they're modelling something after country X. That happens a lot.

This amendment takes that into consideration. It's not a Liberal Party idea. I'm just advancing what another European country has done. If you apply it to Canada, even our own judicial system acknowledges that there's a difference between an 8-year-old and a 28-year-old. We have a completely different system set up to recognize that. From an immigration point of view, we're not acknowledging that fact. We're saying that they're all one.

Keep in mind that what we're talking about is more than 1.5 million people who call Canada their home. If you believe that out of that 1.5 million people there are not going to be people who will fall on the other side of the law periodically, and hopefully it doesn't become a permanent thing, then you're awfully naive. Out of 1.5 million people, there will be some people who unfortunately will make stupid decisions.

Does it justify deporting them? Yes, in some cases, no doubt it does. We hear of those extreme cases that the Minister of Immigration brings up, but equally at the other end there are going to be individuals, as a result of this legislation's passing, who will be deported when they should not be. This amendment is just one way of saying maybe we should step back a little and recognize that France has had it in place for a period of time and it seems to be working.

We as a country have recognized that there's a difference between age 8 and age 28, so why wouldn't we do likewise?

A conditional sentence is given because the judicial system, and particularly the judge, has made the determination that it's okay for the community; that, given the circumstances around the crime that was committed, this is the disposition, and that it's okay to have that disposition in the form of a conditional sentence, that it's safe to society. The judge likely believes that the individual might be a first-time offender and that it's quite appropriate to give that conditional sentence.

All we're doing is recognizing the same sort of rights, in part at least, that we already give.

I'm ready to vote, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, you're not ready. Ms. Freeman is going to say a few words.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'm quite surprised that the members on the Conservative side don't see those kinds of cases in which temporary residents didn't realize that they needed to apply for citizenship. Many people from France certainly have no idea. We make sure we inform them in my riding, because we've seen a lot of cases like that.

I've also seen cases in which a woman will marry a Canadian man and move here but he hasn't't filled in her papers properly, but she doesn't know it. It can be really frustrating. There are plenty of different situations that I see in my office. Every immigration case is different. We have to understand, when we're making legislation, that there will be cases that may not immediately fit your idea of how it's going to work, that there will be exceptions.

The key point I want to make, though, is something that I haven't heard said much but which I think is definitely motivating what the opposition is trying to say.

If someone comes here as a small child and grows up in this country and as a young adult, for instance, falls in with the wrong crowd and makes some mistakes, that's our society's responsibility. It's our society that has led this person to fall in with the wrong crowd, to feel that there are not many opportunities.

This is not the country in which that person was born. It's us. We therefore have a responsibility to prevent that kind of thing and also to make sure that such people are rehabilitated and reintegrated into society. That's something we're not doing. Instead, we're saying, that the person spent six months or a year in this other country where the person was born, and therefore it's now that country's problem.

To me that doesn't make any sense. I want to put that on the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

It's okay, I was just going to ask Mylène whether any of those constituents were serious criminals or not, but I'll leave it.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

No, I just meant it as an example of people who might not know. It is possible.

It's surprising to me that categorically the members on the Conservative side say that they've never seen a case in which someone didn't know they had to apply for citizenship. That's extremely surprising to me.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That's not at all what we have said.

[An hon. member]

No one said that.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I need to respond to that, because it's not a fair. I'm going to completely disagree with what you've said, because that is not at all what we've said.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In the next—

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

No, hold on a second. You've made your point. Let me have a chance to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Order.

I'm up here. You have to direct your comments through the chair. We've been letting chats go on, but we're getting a little out of hand.

Mr. Dykstra.