Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for sharing that number with us, those people who are unaccounted for, as you said.

I was thinking how this system would help. As you said, the vast majority of those people came here, claimed refugee status, didn't get it, and then disappeared after that. That's my understanding. If that is so, how would having an exit system help with that? If they're going to hide and go underground, they will do that even if we have an exit system, will they not?

[Peter Hill]

We'll collect biometric data through the entry/exit program when they leave the country. We'll be able to confirm whether they have left the country or not. Twenty percent of that figure is a significant number. It means that the CBSA can then devote its resources to more focused priority areas for law enforcement.

I would say that the number itself is also very comparable on a per capita basis with the United States. This inventory is, in fact, with the Canadian Police Information Centre, which allows a sharing and a leverage to identify these individuals during the course of police and regular business law enforcement.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Just so you know, we've had a number of witnesses appear before us who have really been concerned about the psychological impact of incarceration of would-be Canadians, because many of these people who arrive as asylum seekers are doing exactly what the United Nations accepts. We are signatories to that. We will take asylum seekers. Until the refugee claim is rejected, they are here to seek refuge, be they called asylum seekers or not. Yet, under the new regime that could be implemented—the two-tiered refugees from so-called safe countries—we're looking at increasing incarceration.

A comment was made by Janet Cleveland, who is a psychologist at McGill University in Montreal and studies the effects of detention on asylum seekers. She said:

We have a very strong position saying people should not be incarcerated when they’re not criminals. Incarceration is absolutely unjustified because there’s essentially no flight risk.

These people aren't going to go anywhere.

Many countries have looked for other ways—people having to report in, all kinds of ways to tackle this—and yet we're sort of moving toward a system whereby a growing number of people are going to be incarcerated.

At the same time as that is happening, we're also hearing from different groups about the lack of resources that our border security people currently have in order to do due diligence, in order to do the kind of homework that needs to be done.

My question goes back to you. Specifically, what other means could we use that would be an alternative to incarceration?

[Peter Hill]

I think you've already identified several. The Toronto bail program is an excellent example. We've assessed the possibility to expand or to create a Toronto bail-like program in other jurisdictions. Electronic monitoring, as you know, is something that is being assessed. We use terms and conditions for many cases where there are reporting requirements or bonds. That allows a person to be in contact with CBSA outside of detention. These are some of the measures.

I would contest the assertion you made that we're going to be having more people in detention. I don't think that is the intent of the reforms that are being put in place. Currently, the average detention is 19 days, and about 50% are released from detention within 48 hours.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

But you also know that irregular arrivals from so-called safe countries will be incarcerated, at the beginning.

[Peter Hill]

You're referring to irregular arrivals—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes.

[Peter Hill]

—that the Minister of Public Safety would designate?

If there's a suspicion that the arrival has been undertaken in association with human smuggling for profit and in association with organized crime or terrorism—that very specific measure is designed to deal with that population. Those individuals would be subject to detention, where they would have an independent review at 14 days and then a second review at 180 days.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

You've said something really important and I want to have it clarified.

Let's say a boatload arrives; a group of people get themselves onto a boat and land in Vancouver. Are you saying that only if the minister can prove that boat was assisted by organized crime would those people be incarcerated? Or would they all be incarcerated because they arrived in a group and they're considered irregular arrivals?

[Peter Hill]

The legislation establishes two criteria: one, that the volume of arrivals through this irregular means overwhelms resources; and the second—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I'm just trying to understand it for myself. We did try to get a number, and it actually wasn't made definitive. It could be more than two or three people arriving together. So for me, when you're going to start designating in such a way, then the number of people incarcerated is going to increase, because all those people, in that circumstance, would be held in a detention centre.

But let me carry on to something a little bit different.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think you're out of time.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

How could that be?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

When you're having fun, it just speeds right by.

We have Mr. Lamoureux next.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to go back to this whole 44,000—and I really appreciate that this is probably a guesstimate, and I can understand why.

When you think of that 44,000 people, what percentage—again, a guesstimate—would be people who have overstayed visas versus refugees versus workers? Can you give us a ballpark guesstimate?

[Peter Hill]

Our best assessment is that about 80% to 90% are failed refugee claimants. In terms of overstays, I can't be specific on the estimate, but it would be a relatively small percentage, for sure.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So you're talking about maybe a few thousand, potentially. It's hard to say.

[Peter Hill]

It's hard to say.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I want to go right to the detention centre.

The committee, and myself, Mr. Dykstra, the chair, actually made it to all three facilities, which was really of great benefit. One of the things I noticed at the Vancouver detention centre, if one wants to call it a detention centre, is that they are there for only 48 hours, I believe. They can stay overnight. The average stay is 17 days.

[Peter Hill]

It's 72 hours.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

So for all intents and purposes, the real detention centre in Vancouver would in fact be the provincial jail. Would that not be the case?

[Peter Hill]

In the case of Vancouver, yes, we have to rely on provincial corrections for our detentions.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Now, if I list the three facilities we have, I thought the Vancouver one—it's not a reflection on staff—was virtually irrelevant as a detention centre. Then we went to Montreal, and the Montreal one had some excellent programming and was a decent facility. Then you go to Toronto, which has a decent facility. It had a wonderful program in the Toronto bail program. One would have thought, “Well, here's a great idea. Let's have it apply at least to Laval.” I would think they're fairly easy to duplicate.

My question for you is this. To what degree is the department today looking seriously at changing the way we detain people? Vancouver seems to be more wasteful than anything else...or build a real detention centre.

Can you tell the committee what's happening in the next four or five years in capital infrastructure for detention centres?

[Peter Hill]

I can confirm that the agency is very seriously looking at detention and the detention strategy, as well as the proposed options for going forward to ensure that CBSA has the infrastructure and the strategy to ensure much greater consistency in its detention practices. A robust business case is being developed to consider how we can improve the fact that we are limited today because of our infrastructure constraints—that’s something very much at the top of our priority list.