Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2012

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Do you know what it would cost to keep someone in detention for more than 14 days in Toronto versus Vancouver?

[Peter Hill]

Yes, we do. We're looking very seriously at our costs. We're also benchmarking our costs against others. We're also benchmarking our costs—

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Hill, would it be safe to say that the cost would be considerably higher in Vancouver than it would be in Toronto, because they're going to a provincial jail?

[Peter Hill]

No, I would say they're comparable.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

They're comparable, okay.

What about Montreal and Toronto? Are they comparable?

[Peter Hill]

Yes, they're comparable.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Okay.

In terms of the overall number of people in Canada who are in detention, is it increasing over the last number of years or is it relatively stable?

[Peter Hill]

It's actually relatively stable. It's about 9,000. Last year, in fact, we had 9,900 detentions. The year before we had 8,800. The year before that we had about 9,500, but going back to 2008, we had 14,000.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Could you give us some encouraging words by saying that we are in fact, as a department, looking at the Toronto bail program to implement that on a national basis?

[Peter Hill]

We're looking very much at the Toronto bail program. In fact, we assessed the Quebec region specifically for the purpose of trying to create a similar program there, but it was found to be not feasible. One of the major features of Ontario is the volume of cases, as well as the unique not-for-profit organization that is in Ontario.

I would say that alternatives to detention are very much a pillar of CBSA's strategy on detention going forward. So we are looking for alternatives in combination with immigration holding centres that are administered by the CBSA.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Hill.

Mr. Dykstra, go ahead.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, through you, Chair.

Mr. Hill, I don't want to get into a detailed discussion around cost, but I have to disagree with one of the comments you made in answer to Mr. Lamoureux's questioning, and that is the cost of detention on a daily basis for an individual in Montreal versus the cost of detention in Vancouver and Toronto, in Rexdale.

Rexdale, Toronto, is about $140 a day, as we were told. In Vancouver, based upon the structure of that arrangement, if they remain in detention, they're not at the airport facility very long; they end up in a provincial facility, and the costs there are somewhere in that neighbourhood. When we were in Montreal and we did a cost breakdown, we were told that it was between $400 and $500 per day per detainee. So I do find that quite a significant difference. You said they were comparable. I don't know if I would agree.

I would agree that Vancouver and Rexdale are comparable, but I wouldn't agree that Montreal and Rexdale and Vancouver are comparable.

[Peter Hill]

I think we would have to look very carefully at the elements that are considered part of the costing exercise, and I think that might be one explanation for the great variation that you've cited, but I'd be happy to provide the committee with additional information, if that would be helpful.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Sure. That would be great.

One of the other questions I have—or perhaps a comment that I would like to get your thoughts on—is that the detention aspect of this came up on a regular basis, both from witnesses and from questions from committee members.

It seems to me that it's important, and it was noted when we agreed to the study and to what the parameters of the study would be—reviewing the detention facilities currently available in the country in those three locations, coming back based on the fact that we heard from witnesses and experts, and having had the chance to view the facilities—that we include within our report some recommendations in terms of overall direction.

I understand your comments about coming back with a strategy, and it would seem to me that it may be helpful to have the committee's feelings, through recommendation and through the report, as to some of the direction that you may want to consider when looking at the restructuring of detention facilities.

[Peter Hill]

We would certainly welcome the recommendations of the committee.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

Perhaps I could ask the same question of both Dawn and Les. The parameters within the structure that we have for this report would include some recommendations with respect to detention facilities and future direction. Are you comfortable that it would be of some assistance to the ministry?

[Les Linklater]

Yes, definitely.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you. That concludes our time today.

Mr. Linklater, Ms. Edlund, Mr. Hill, and Mr. Leckey, thank you very much for coming and assisting us in this final stage of the report.

Unless something strange happens, we will be meeting on Wednesday to give instructions. That meeting will be in camera and it will be here.

This meeting is adjourned.