Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We will reconvene the meeting.

For the final hour of this morning's proceedings we have two representatives from the Department of National Defence.

We have Colonel Michael R. Gibson, who is the deputy judge advocate general. Good morning to you.

We also have Colonel François Bariteau, who is the director of personnel generation requirements. Good morning to you, too, sir. I gather you are going to be the spokesperson for a few moments. You have up to 10 minutes to make a presentation to the committee, sir.

Thank you both for coming to the committee.

[Colonel François Bariteau, Director, Personnel Generation Requirements, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, good morning.

I am Colonel François Bariteau, the Director of Personnel Generation Requirements for the Chief of Military Personnel. In my role I am responsible for determining what our annual intake of personnel should be, both in terms of overall numbers, and in terms of specific sub-categories.

I'm accompanied by my colleague, Colonel Michael Gibson, who is the deputy judge advocate general for military justice. He is responsible for advising the Judge Advocate General on matters related to military justice. This includes reviewing proposed amendments to the National Defence Act or amendments to other laws that could impact the military justice system, as well as developing legal policy related to military justice.

As we are appearing as technical experts in the fields of military law and military personnel policy, our comments are limited to our respective fields of expertise in regard to this private member's bill. We have carefully reviewed the bill from our respective points of view.

I would like to point out that at present, the Canadian armed forces already have the ability to recruit permanent residents when there is a shortage of Canadian armed forces members in specific occupations and the applicant has a recorded skill set that satisfies a special need. This bill would reduce the citizenship requirement by one year for these members of the Canadian armed forces.

Moving to the clause related to the deemed renunciation of citizenship, Colonel Gibson would point out that the use of the term “war” has a very limited meaning in international law. Therefore, an “act of war” is generally interpreted to mean only those actions that take place when a formal state of war exists between two countries.

Mr. Chair, we thank you for this opportunity to discuss this private member's bill with the committee.

We now welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Colonel Bariteau. We do have some questions.

Mr. Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to take this opportunity to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today. More importantly, I want to thank you for your service to our country. It's always an honour to have folks from our Canadian Forces, and it's a privilege to have you here with us today.

The Canadian Forces have been criticized for not doing enough to attract Canadians from diverse cultural backgrounds. Can you give us an update on what actions have been taken to address this issue, and if so, what results you are seeing?

[Col François Bariteau]

Unfortunately, that is not one of my responsibilities, sir. Figures on the recruitment of visible minorities, women and first nations is the responsibility of the commander of the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on the figures in any precise way.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you think that this bill would help at all in recruiting more diverse Canadian Forces members?

[Col François Bariteau]

In my opinion, the impact would be minimal, given the number of permanent residents who enlist in the Canadian Forces each year. You have to understand that we are talking about specific needs. We consider permanent residents who want to join the Canadian Forces when there is a specific need in a given military job. Take pilots, for example. The training can take more than two years, actually. People are recruited, their files are studied by the commander of the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group, who then decides whether employing such a person would or would not be prejudicial to national security.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you. That sort of begs the next question.

What constitutes basic training? Generally, what is the time period for basic training?

[Col François Bariteau]

For basic military qualifications there are two courses. The first one is basic military qualifications for non-commissioned members, which is a 14-week course that is given at the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in St-Jean. There is a 15-week course that is called the basic military officer qualification for officer candidates who want to become an officer. Basically the course is geared towards giving the core skills and knowledge for a newly enrolled Canadian armed forces member to be effective in a military environment.

The basic skills are weapons handling, first aid, working within a small team, doing all kinds of tasking, and obviously a lot of physical training because it is a key factor for us to meet what we call the universality of service. It can be summed up in three words: be fit, employable, and deployable.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Is it the opinion of the Department of National Defence that this bill, as it's been written and proposed, provides sufficient time and service with the Canadian Forces to show loyalty and long-term commitment to justify expedited Canadian citizenship?

[Col François Bariteau]

Unfortunately, I cannot comment on that.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

We heard from Mr. Shory just prior to your testifying here today that he is open to amendments to the bill. As members of the forces, is there anything else that you would like to see that perhaps would strengthen the bill and make it a little bit more amenable to the Canadian Forces?

Would you care to comment on that?

[Colonel Michael R. Gibson, Deputy Judge Advocate General of Military Justice, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, Colonel Bariteau and I are here today essentially as technical witnesses to assist members of the committee with understanding certain aspects of the bill, both from the matter of military law and military personnel policy. However, I think we would consider this outside the ambit of what we could properly comment on today to make policy statements in respect of the department. That would be the function of the minister.

Thank you.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I want to thank you very much for responding, and I understand your responses completely.

Mr. Chair, I think I'm going to pass on the rest of my time. If I still have a couple of minutes, I think my colleague Ms. James has more questions.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I want to get back to your definitions. In your opening remarks you talked about the term “war” as having a very limited meaning in international law, and therefore an “act of war” would be this. Is there a current definition of an act of war against the Canadian armed forces? Does that appear anywhere?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Thank you for the question. Thank you for raising it.

I'd like to take a few moments to address this issue because utilization of the term “act of war” in clause 2 of the bill could be potentially problematic. I'd like to offer a few technical comments on that.

The term “war”, or “declaration of war”, really has gone out of fashion in international law since the Second World War. There hasn't actually been a declaration of war per se since the Second World War. International law has really shied away from using that concept, and instead inclines towards the use of the term “armed conflict”. That's preferable in this case because the existence of an armed conflict is essentially determined as a matter of fact and doesn't depend on a formal declaration of war.

Similarly, the expression “act of war” is not found, really, in any of the key treaties currently forming part of international law. The expression “act of war” actually is used to a limited extent in Canadian legislation, but really only in a very limited number of provisions, and strictly dealing with anything with liability, for example, in the Marine Liability Act and the Fisheries Act, but not really in contexts similar to this proposed legislation. So in general, the concept “act of war” is not defined under Canadian legislation in the context that it would appear in this bill.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Are there any legal precedents? You said “armed conflict” is a better term to use, but are there any legal precedents that have been set around that term, or what the term means?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

Around “act of war” or “armed conflict”?

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

For “act of war”, you're saying a better term might be “armed conflict”. Have any precedents been set with regard to past history or cases or anything around that particular issue?

[Col Michael R. Gibson]

I'm sorry, could you clarify whether you mean “act of war” or “armed conflict”?

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm referring to “act of war”, but you've indicated—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're going to have to move on. I'm sorry.

Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colonel Gibson, Colonel Bariteau, thank you for being here. Thank you for your presentation.

You already answered one of my questions when you said that you recruit permanent residents when you have not recruited enough people with certain skills.

How many permanent residents are recruited each year?

[Col François Bariteau]

About fifteen or so. Since April 1, 2010, the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group has recruited 50 permanent residents in the regular forces and 15 or so in the reserve forces.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In total, about how many of those people are currently serving in the Canadian Forces?