Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have to wind up, Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Definitely, this is a unique service, and the people who put their lives on the line—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're over, and we're going to have to move on to Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

Sorry, Mr. Shory.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Shory, I wanted to continue in the same vein as my colleague, Mr. Toone. At the bill's second reading debate, in the same quote that Mr. Toone stated, you mentioned that a person who commits an as yet undefined act of war would “meet proper justice, with all due oversight”. Can you explain from whom or where the due oversight would come?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

That's a good question and I want to address it.

Under the provisions of the Canadian Citizenship Act as it stands today, it's my understanding there is a process of oversight. Anyone whose citizenship is revoked presently is given a notice by the department. Then there are federal appeals, and then there is a ministerial appeal. Of course, the oversight for renunciation would be the same.

At the same time, I would also suggest that to elaborate on the procedural process of how it works, maybe it would be proper to ask some questions of the CIC officials as well.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So we don't really know yet exactly how the oversight will be done. Is it giving more discretionary—

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Absolutely, I do know there is a process as it stands today. I believe, if I'm correct, it is section 48 of the immigration act that sets up the process of oversight, but, again, it would be good to have clarification from the CIC officials when they are here.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It seems we need to look into a lot. I just wanted to make sure it's not just another bill that puts more discretionary power in the hands of one minister. I'll move on.

In February, Minister Kenney suggested—and to quote him—that we should broaden the scope of the bill to include those who commit acts of terrorism.

Mr. Shory, the minister's comments only underscore the necessity of definition within this bill, but also allude to amendments he plans to bring to it. Can you tell us, Mr. Shory, if the minister will table those amendments in time for all sides of this committee to evaluate them?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

To be concise, I can tell you I don't know. I have heard as much as you have heard about what the minister proposed. When I heard about it, it seemed like it's in the same line of talks.

To me, those individuals who basically attack those who fight or who give their lives to protect those values do not deserve to be Canadian citizens, whether they're terrorists or not. I have to see the details of the proposal of the minister, so—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Have you seen the minister's proposal?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I said that I have to see it. I have not seen any proposal yet. I believe if there will be a proposal, it would come from the committee.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

In this bill we have not defined “act of war”, and possibly coming from the minister, acts of terrorism. What we're seeing is the creation of a two-tier citizenship. I haven't seen in the bill what would happen for born citizens if they committed the not yet defined act of war, or if the minister brings in acts of terrorism towards a person who is serving in our forces.

A naturalized citizen would lose their citizenship. What would happen to somebody who's a born Canadian, who has Canadian citizenship, if they commit a not yet defined act of war towards service personnel?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Let me share with the committee that my intention is very simple. It's simply to reward those who basically put their lives on the line and—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

My question is exactly the opposite. It's not about the person serving in the force; it's about a person who's committing a not yet defined act of war toward a person who's serving.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Yes, you are talking about clause 2 of my bill.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Right.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, 80% of Canadians who responded indicated they are in favour of revoking Canadian citizenship from those who commit acts of treason or acts of war or—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Is that for born Canadian citizens also?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Again, Canadians understand that citizenship is a privilege, basically, and we must do everything to protect its value. At the same time, as you know, we have all these international agreements, the Geneva Conventions. We have in place the Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, which means, as it stands now, it will apply to those people who have another place to live, or who have citizenship from another place.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

So in effect there are two tiers of citizenship—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sorry, Ms. Sitsabaiesan, your time has expired.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Shory, and also congratulations on having your private member's bill come this far. From personal experience, I know that it is an honour to be able to present to committee.

Some of my colleagues across the way have talked about the definition of “acts of war” and also adding other things to the bill, such as the inclusion of terrorism and so on. I know that you've answered those questions, but I want to give you a bit of background on what I found in my own riding of Scarborough Centre. You've indicated you did some polling as well.

I actually sent out a letter to my constituents regarding the revocation of citizenship for residency or citizenship fraud. There was an announcement last year about CIC investigating 11,000 individuals. I asked for responses from my constituency. I bring this up now because there was a common thread in those responses that I received. Overwhelmingly in the responses that I received, my constituents were asking us to also renounce the citizenship of those who commit acts of terrorism, or those who commit treason against Canada. I just want to bring that to light, because it's not just in your area. I'm in Toronto, so it's a very diverse ethnic area, the community that I live in, and there is overwhelming support for those two things.

I've heard you say today that you are open to adding terrorism as grounds for deemed renunciation, but I have to ask, on behalf of my constituents of Scarborough Centre, are you also open to adding in the term “treason”?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I have been saying from the day I tabled my bill that I am open to any suggestion or recommendation that would strengthen the intention of my bill. I am still open, and I'll keep myself open, for anything that would strengthen the bill. For terrorism, as I said, I have heard the similar view of my constituents and other constituents whom I met that Canadians like to have a peaceful life. Canadians like to keep the high value of Canadian citizenship. That's what I see in Canadians. I believe that's what all of you see from your constituents in each of your ridings. Again I suggest that we should keep Canadian citizenship's value high, as it is.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Recently we discovered a Canadian citizen, a dual national who hadn't actually lived in Canada since being a child.... They had immigrated to Canada, had dual national citizenship here in Canada and in another country, had left Canada as a young child, and were suspected of a terrorist attack, a bombing in Bulgaria that left several people dead. That's one incident.

Actually, not too long ago in the news, we heard about a possibility of another Canadian being involved in a terrorist attack, a horrific bombing. We heard more about it yesterday. An Algerian, I think, has been confirmed through fingerprints as a Canadian citizen. I hear of these two recent cases, and not too long ago, we heard of the Toronto 18 terror group.

Being from Toronto, I have to tell you there's something happening. I'm very concerned about it. My constituents talk to me on a regular basis about these types of issues. They're concerned about it. I'm just wondering, from your viewpoint, do you think that radicalization here in Canada is a growing problem?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I don't know if it is a continually growing problem, but definitely in my experience I have seen it from a very low level to a little above that level. I think it is not only time for this bill, but we are a little late as well. If I had a chance, I should have brought this kind of bill in earlier.