Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 26th, 2013

[Asif Khan]

So again my remarks go back to more of the root of the issue. Let's make sure that we're protecting whomever we're letting into this country in the first place. Let's have stronger measures set up to root out those who could spread hate in this country so they are not able to obtain citizenship. So it's a moot fact if you're going to strip citizenship from a terrorist anyway.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's correct, and we cannot leave someone stateless. That's part of what we stand for, so this applies only to people who have obtained citizenship and when it's a dual citizenship situation. In fact, there have been many cases where someone has obtained citizenship and then has left this country, travelling on a Canadian passport. I think you mentioned that Canadian passports allow you to really travel freely in this world because Canadians are known for honesty, goodwill, and their stand on democracy and freedom. We've heard from other witnesses in this committee in previous sessions who have testified that they believe that a Canadian passport actually allows someone to more freely travel throughout the world and to plot and commit acts of terrorism.

Would you agree with that statement?

[Salma Siddiqui]

I definitely do agree and I think that we need to go a little beyond partisan politics, if I may put it that way. We should look at what effect it has on the majority of immigrants who have become Canadians and the fact that this does result in a backlash. It's a discussion for another time, but definitely, anybody who is holding dual citizenship and comes here just to use this passport, it really gives those who are working for Canada.... I believe I'm one of them, and we are here because we are supporting that. It definitely needs serious consideration.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you. Ms. Siddiqui, you mentioned some of the terrorist attacks that we've been hearing about recently. There was something in Bulgaria and, of course, Algeria not too long ago, and now there has been confirmation that there were two Canadians involved in that.

I'm from the Toronto area, Scarborough actually, and I think it was a real eye-opener not too long ago for people in Canada to learn about the Toronto 18 and the fact that there were training camps here in Ontario and that many members of that particular group were actually from the Scarborough area. It was a huge concern for my constituents.

Do you think that radicalization in Canada is a growing problem? I have to tell you, 10 to 15 years ago, we never heard about it.

[Salma Siddiqui]

It is a definite problem, and anyone who says this only might be a problem is living in a dream world. It is a definite problem. I was travelling to Dubai last year and I saw an imam from the Mississauga area bringing 18 or 19 young people for a retreat. I know very well what that retreat was and I'm not getting into maybes. The fact is, yes, it's a real threat, and we must look into it seriously.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

If someone comes here to Canada and seeks to obtain citizenship and then uses that citizenship to travel abroad to commit acts of terrorism, would you consider their citizenship fraudulent? After all, I've been to many ceremonies, and they take an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty and to this country to uphold our laws and values. Would you say that someone who sets out to obtain citizenship so that they can travel freely would be obtaining it in a fraudulent manner?

[Salma Siddiqui]

Absolutely, and I think there have been weaknesses in our system.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

And do you feel that by letting people know, when they take that oath, that they will be stripped of their citizenship if they commit an act of terror or plot to destroy the very thing that Canadians hold dear, democracy and freedom in this country, it would send a clear message that Canada will not tolerate this type of activity in this country or abroad?

[Salma Siddiqui]

This is definitely a very clear message, and we hope this will resonate and that people will understand that there is a responsibility with that.

We cannot be politically correct in everything and it's not about political correctness, because at the end of the day, by being politically correct we are not doing service to the immigrants who have come here and are working in an honest manner. I'm not an immigrant. I've been here more than three quarters of my life, but the fact is, I'm still called an immigrant.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all representatives for coming here today, for presenting to us and giving us your perspectives, or the perspectives that your organizations hold, on the issue that we are here to discuss.

First, let me make it very, very clear that we fully support our military, our armed forces, reflecting the diversity of our population.

I've been a teacher most of my life. I have fought for that diversity in all institutions, including the teaching profession. I think we're better served when all our institutions represent the diversity so that all our kids—whether their roots are in Pakistan, whether their roots are in India or China, or wherever they are—see themselves reflected when they see the people who are either teaching them or working in the systems that we have.

So we are fully supportive of measures that would facilitate that kind of a diversity.

Second, let me also make it very clear that we think having Canadian citizenship is a privilege, especially for those of us who were not born in Canada.

I'm one of those. I am an immigrant to Canada. I actually made my husband promise that we were only coming for a year. That led to two years. And that led to me being here since 1975. So it's been a very, very long time.

I consciously chose Canada to be my home, as a place where I wanted to raise my children. I did that because I looked at the kind of standing Canada used to have internationally—I say “used” to have internationally—and saw the kind of cultural milieu that was here, and the beautiful geography, and thought, “What a wonderful place to raise my children.” Both of my children were born here.

Now that we've got this aside, I'll turn to the concerns and questions we have with this bill. I don't want them to be taken as partisan shots. These are legitimate concerns, where we play our role as the opposition and also as parliamentarians to look at legislation to make sure it serves the intent, and to make sure it does not go in such a sweeping way that it takes away rights, as well, from certain individuals who should not have their rights taken away.

It's with that perspective that I come at this bill, as do my colleagues.

With that in mind, my first question is to you, Professor Scoppio. I read your paper on diversity best practices in military organizations with great interest. As I said, that's something that's dear to my heart.

By the way, I would have been in the armed forces if I had been half an inch taller.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

But I failed my medical way back when, in a different country—in England.

At any rate, in that paper you discuss recommendations that would help the Canadian Forces shift from its current reactive approach to diversifying its recruits to a more proactive approach.

In your analysis, is clause 1 of Bill C-425 a reactive or proactive measure towards enhancing diversity in the Canadian Forces? Can you elaborate on how you would see the proactive approaches playing out?

[Prof. Grazia Scoppio]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, this part of the bill would be proactive. My point, however, was that on its own, it would only achieve a very small impact. The reason is that, by and large, non-citizens, even if they are permanent residents, are not eligible to apply.

You spoke to the intent. If the intent is to open the Canadian Forces recruiting door a little bit wider, then other related policies and processes need to be amended at the same time.

But by all means, yes, this is the first baby step, if you will, in a proactive way.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I wasn't here for the testimony last week, due to illness, but I have read it. We heard from members of the Canadian Forces that clause 1 of this bill would actually apply to a very small number, as you have said, about 15. I come from Newton-North Delta, which is a very diverse community. When I look at the diversity of this amazing country and our population, I worry about this baby step being too tiny, because if we were to look at increments of 15 over the next number of years, how long is it going to take? When we look at reflecting our diversity in our systems, especially in our military, I don't think we should wait that long. I do have that concern.

In your paper, Professor, you also wrote that core Canadian diversity values should be a fundamental component of the framework of Canadian Forces' leadership values. Further, you suggested that these values and competencies should apply to everyone in the organization, not only to existing majority groups but also to the new, so-called minority groups. In other words, individuals whose values and attitudes are in conflict with those of the organization will be expected to adapt to the organizational context.

Can you explain how the values or value compliance of a potential recruit might currently be measured or assessed?

[Prof. Grazia Scoppio]

Right now the standard measure is the Canadian Forces' aptitude test. It's not really measuring those kinds of values. There are some organizations, for example, some police organizations, that are starting to look at psychometric measures to ensure that their recruits are, for example, not racist and things of that sort.

I don't believe that our standard test right now measures those kinds of values that I'm talking about, in terms of diversity—multiculturalism being one of them—and if they are necessarily a priority that's being measured.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Professor.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This bill, in my opinion, is accomplishing two things. First, I mentioned last week the establishment of two-tier citizenship. Now I have a letter that I believe all committee members have. It's from the Canadian Bar Association. I want to quote one part of it:

The Bill proposes to create two classes of citizens. Dual citizens would risk losing Canadian citizenship in certain unclearly defined circumstances, even if they were born in Canada and had lived their entire lives here. Citizens who do not have another nationality would not risk losing Canadian citizenship.

We're talking about a relatively small number. You could count on one hand, minus your thumb, the number of people this has affected over the last 50 years. Is it worth establishing two-tier citizenship? Would it be just as effective to say that if these individuals are found, there is another way of dealing with them? You could put them in prison, for example, and treat citizens equally.

I'm interested in very quick responses from Mr.Khan and Ms. Siddiqui.

[Asif Khan]

When you say that the number is minuscule or small, what is that number?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Less than four. It's been two or three people in the last 50 years—

[Asif Khan]

That are in fear of losing their citizenship?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

—that if this law were to pass, it would actually have impacted.

[Asif Khan]

I'm not sure that I understand that comment. Those who are extremists or terrorists tend to take pride in maintaining their citizenship in another country as well, whatever the country it may be.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

What I'm referring to, Mr. Khan, is whether we should allow two-tier citizenship as opposed to ensuring that there is a more direct consequence, equally applied, to our citizens. It could be prison or whatever it might be.

[Asif Khan]

I don't look at it as two-tier. I look at it as somebody who's an extremist or a terrorist who has violated Canadian values and who should be treated according to the law. If the law allows us to strip their citizenship, then so be it. That is how it should be.