Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 4th, 2013

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Have you come up with a process that, despite that exemption, will allow Parliament to stay informed of any operational changes?

[Les Linklater]

Yes. The electronic authorization fees should be set out in our regulations. We will have a process for deciding how to draft the regulations, and that will include a prepublication process, where the public and MPs will be asked for their opinion.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you.

In the case of rejected TRV applications, you only gave two possibilities, including a new application.

Applicants who are submitting a new application have to rebuild their file and go through the whole process again, even though they have already submitted an application. Could the process be changed, so that applicants don't have to resubmit their whole file, but only the additional supporting documents? That would help avoid extra work. Would that be an option? How could that be achieved?

[Robert Orr]

Thank you very much. That is an important area that we should explore.

One of the things we are trying to do is to give as much information as possible up front so that individuals have a very clear idea about what is required and present the right information.

We're also hoping that through the use of these application centres people there will be able to give advice on what is missing from an application. They will not give advice about the process and what they should be submitting to these offices, but they can provide some advice on what is missing on the actual documents, and if questions have not been answered, and so on. That is often the basis for the refusals. There is just not enough information of that sort. Rather than have them revisit, we'd rather give more information up front so the applicants have a very clear idea of what is required and can move forward on that score.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the last year or year and a half, members of the citizenship and immigration committee have discussed trying to improve the visa system. Believing in goodwill, we want to see all parties participate in this. Some information would be advantageous for us, as committee members, to have.

In the area I represent I deal a lot with areas such as the Philippines, Chandigarh in India, and Ukraine. When I look at the percentages, 80% to 84% approval rating in Ukraine, in the low-80% rate in the Philippines, and as you pointed out earlier, 52% in Chandigarh, it would be nice to be able to contrast that. For example, the other day I was having a discussion with someone from Ukraine who indicated it was over 90%. I thought the person said it was an over-95% approval rating for those going to the States. I've heard similar comments, again using the United States, with regard to the Philippines.

Mr. Orr or Mr. Linklater, can you commit to providing us with information on approvals, at least on those three, and for whatever other countries you can find? It would be of great benefit to the committee. Another country I would like to look at as a comparison is the U.K. If that is possible, I would very much appreciate it.

If you want to comment, it would be great.

[Robert Orr]

Mr. Chair, we can certainly try to provide that information.

Right off the bat, I see that the acceptance rate is 84% in our offices in Kiev and Manila, which is a little higher than the average. We've already spoken about Chandigarh.

We can certainly try to get the comparators for the United States and the U.K. We have to keep in mind that this comparison is a bit of apples and oranges, but it might be indicative of where things are.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

As a closing comment I'll tell you why I believe this is a really important issue. A constituent came to the local McDonald's and told me her parent is dying and she has been unable to get her sibling to Canada. The parent cannot go to the Philippines, and that means unless that sibling is given a visitor's visa, they will never be reunited with the parent. That is tragic.

All of us would want to do what we could to resolve that sort of situation.

I'll leave it at that. If you want to add further comments, you're most welcome. I look forward to receiving those results.

[Robert Orr]

I would just add that I think visa officers are extremely sensitive to those sorts of compelling situations, and they want to try to facilitate where they can. Often in those circumstances, the use of temporary resident permits is used where a visa is not possible. It doesn't resolve all the situations, but I think it goes a long way towards doing so.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to visa versus permit, you've said that, in many cases, when it comes to funerals, illnesses, weddings, and so on, if the visa application is rejected they may be able to come to Canada on a permit instead. How often does that happen? You've said that this is a solution, that it happens many times. But percentage-wise, how many are still not able to come to Canada versus those who can actually come here on a permit for a very short period of time?

[Robert Orr]

I'm sorry, I don't have those statistics on hand. I think we could probably get you the information on the number of permits issued. We may not have the reasons for their being issued, though, so we may not be able to give you a precise figure. But we can give you something helpful, I hope.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

You said you could provide statistics. You may not have the actual numbers, but you must have in your head an idea, because you said there were a lot of them. Can you give us a rough estimate? I'm not going to hold you to an exact figure.

[Robert Orr]

I'm very reluctant. I think we can investigate exactly what the figures are and try to provide you with something specific.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay, I won't dwell on that question any more, then.

Throughout this committee meeting we have talked about alternatives to the system we have. One was the appeal system used in other countries. I think it was mentioned that there have been some problems in the U.K., and they've had to legislate some changes there. I've heard you say that the cost of it, the time to process it, are burdensome, and all these other things.

Are there any pros to that system, or do the cons related to moving to an appeals-based system on rejected visa applications far outweigh anything that would be of any substance here in Canada?

[Les Linklater]

I think our colleagues would say that the level of service and the administrative burden that an appeal process places on the client is not helpful. I don't want to put words in their mouths, but I think that in both the U.K. and Australia the appeal system has room to improve. In the next week or so, changes to the appeal process are expected to come into place. The U.K. has just legislated to limit the right of appeal for certain family members. This would eliminate the right of appeal for people who are planning to visit an uncle, aunt, niece, nephew, or cousin. I think they found this too broad and quite expensive. In Australia, the time delays are not helpful for individuals who want to come for a family event.

From our perspective, the ability to reapply, as well as the opportunity to use the TRP, outweighs the cost and implications of setting up a new arm of government to provide that sort of administrative review.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you. I think that's good common sense. When I hear figures that appeals can cost $1,400 to the person who's applying for it, I think that simply reapplying at a nominal fee, and having it processed much quicker, is the way to go. I thank you for clarifying that.

Not that I want to dwell on fraud in visa applications, but some of the documents you talked about were fake bank statements, false letters of employment, and fraudulent letters of acceptance from Canadian schools. The fraudulent letters from schools, are they legitimate schools here in Canada, or have there been problems with certain institutions putting in recommendations for people to come to Canada for school, but actually they don't really come to school at all? I wonder if you could clarify that, whether it's someone writing a false letter or whether there are issues here in Canada with certain institutions. Could you speak to that for a few minutes?

[Les Linklater]

I would say it's a bit of both, and I'm sure that Bob could supplement my commentary. We've seen fraudulent documents purporting to have been issued by the University of Toronto, for example, and certainly U of T is not aware of that. Some counterfeiters are very good at reproducing documentation outside of Canada, and people are not hesitant to bring that information forward as part of an application.

As to institutions in Canada, there have been some in the past where we've seen more of a facilitative movement, with an institution issuing letters. Provinces are very sensitive to this. We're working on strengthened regulations with the provinces and territories to ensure that only institutions that they designate as having appropriate quality assurance mechanisms in place will be allowed to host foreign students. This will likely start in 2014.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

So it does happen that students come here on student visas, or visas in general, saying that they are going to go to a school and then never actually show up on day one.

[Les Linklater]

Unfortunately we do have issues with our regulatory regime now, which we are moving to fix through this package. We don't actually compel, under the regulations, an individual to attend classes to remain a student in good standing. We know that is a significant loophole and a threat to program integrity that we're moving to close.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, very much, for those comments.

My colleague, Mr. Dykstra, mentioned the use of bonds to accompany visa applications. I believe you said it was administratively burdensome and that it's not going to deter someone who wants to come to Canada and then just stays.

I would tend to agree with that because if I was someone who wanted to come here and had no intention of leaving, if I had to pay a bond or an upfront large amount of money or fee, I frankly wouldn't care if I got it back or not and I would just stay anyway.

[Les Linklater]

I think as we look at the possibility for organized crime and migrant smuggling, that could perhaps present a very easy option for those types of activities to take place.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That was actually my next question. Do you think that would impact human smuggling and those that are involved in human trafficking, where they would just pay the bond and be done with it?

[Les Linklater]

Absolutely. Our experience with irregular migration arrivals is that people are willing to pay a good sum of money to hop on a boat to come to Canada under very perilous conditions. If they could through a bond process actually be issued a document to come forward, if they have no intention to leave, that would certainly be a more attractive option.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

The final word goes to Ms. Sitsabaiesan.