Sorry.
Evidence of meeting #81 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #81 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Clinic Director, Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Sometimes an even sadder situation is when the family is trying to come here to see the family member for the last time, and after they get the visa they end up going to the funeral.
I guess to answer the first question first—what we can do—I think as you mentioned, rather than looking at the individual applicant, at the sponsor, maybe look at all of those things in the context of the principles we're talking about. One of the core principles under section 3 is family reunification. I think that principle should apply to the application of visitor visas as well.
I would still go back to how you change the mindset of visa officers. How do you train them better to acknowledge that you can have a dual intention, because that is allowed? You can have the intention of wanting to come to Canada permanently and still want to come and visit in the meantime.
I think in terms of how to make sure people leave...I'm not sure I have a response, but I know a committee is looking at studying a way of tracking exit. Maybe we should start tracking that first before we decide whether there's a need for that, because this is all a cost. Having an appeal is a cost. Having an MP dealing with these visa requests is a cost too.
9:20 a.m.
Clinic Director, Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Instead of setting up an appeal system or spending more money examining visas, we are asking MPs to do the job of visa officers. I'm sure MPs are still better paid than visa officers right now. It is a cost to the system.
I think maybe tracking the exits to determine whether there is a need, whether there's a huge issue, before we jump into anything....
9:20 a.m.
NDP
9:20 a.m.
National Director, Chinese Canadian National Council
Yes. First of all, I don't blame the visa officers. But something that I have observed is the understanding. Chinese and Canadians think differently, and some cultures are different.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC
What I'm hearing you saying is that maybe some of the visa officers need some cultural sensitivity training.
9:20 a.m.
National Director, Chinese Canadian National Council
I have this experience when people come to me and ask for help. I say, okay, just go to the MP in your riding, because our association can do nothing. For example, last year, one family said they wanted to invite their brother and sister from China to witness their daughter's wedding. They were rejected. There's a limit on time. They were very anxious, very nervous. Another reason is to take care of sick parents because the children have to work; they wanted the other children from China to come and take care of them, but they were also rejected. It's all these cases.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Go, you were expressing yourself and giving a sense of the frustration, where you recognize the deficiencies there. We really try to push the envelope as to what we can do as advocates, whether as members of Parliament or as community leaders, to try to assist someone to come to Canada for a darned good reason. You get frustrated, and it seems as if there's nothing that can be done, that family is not going to be united. My gut feeling is that all members of Parliament want to see some answers to the problem.
One of the things that I see is a problem is that we don't track. Mr. Wong, I think you said it was 300,000 people from China. We have no idea whether it is one hundred or one who stay behind.
There is an issue that I would ask the three of you to provide very brief comment on.
We're just talking about the Chinese community for now, even though the same principle applies for all communities. When you think in terms of the community and the individuals who are arriving in Canada, to what degree do you think there are people who are here without legitimate status, who are actually going to be receiving any form of government assistance? That seems to me to be.... Why don't we open the door? Why don't we just issue more visas, especially if it's a family member and so forth? The argument against it is that of fear. I think if we try to attempt to deal with the fear factor, in other words, that fear is greatly exaggerated, I think then we can start to see more visas being issued.
Can you just provide comment on that issue?
9:20 a.m.
Clinic Director, Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence based on my own experience, because we do not know exactly how many people live in Canada without status to begin with. About ten years ago, I heard the estimate of 200,000 in Toronto and one million across Canada, but I have no idea whether that's legitimate or not. If there are 200,000 in Toronto, then one million in Canada sounds high. I think the majority will live in cities like Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal.
We do assist people without status living in Toronto. Some of them come to us because they want to get status. In general, if you do not have status it is harder for you to get government assistance to begin with, because of all the different rules. For sure, most of them will not have any health care from the government whatsoever, unless they have a refugee claim. Even that door has now been closed, as you know.
Many would not be seeking government assistance because they fear being found out by the government that they have no status. I would venture to guess that a very small percentage of this number of non-status people are here and seeking government assistance. Still, it's important. If that is the issue, why we are making it so hard for people to come, then maybe having a way to study that issue is important.
That figure can be obtained. If you want to find out if they're on assistance, then seeking cooperation from social assistance administrators will help, because they will have information about the status of their clients. There may be other ways of getting the information as well.
9:25 a.m.
Executive Director, Chinese Canadian National Council
I have a couple of comments.
Most people who come to visit do leave. It seems to me that the problems we're identifying are with the visa holders. There are people who visit who don't require a visa. What about them? Are we concerned about Americans or Britons who overstay?
I have a much smaller estimate than one million on status in Canada. I worked on the boat migrant issue back in 1999, and at that time I estimated non-status to be around 50,000 across Canada. That's probably at the low end of the estimate.
9:25 a.m.
Executive Director, Chinese Canadian National Council
Okay.
In my view, you should look at a program to land the people who are without status in Canada, especially those who have been in Canada for a long period of time. It would balance off the deportations that are taking place right now.
June 6th, 2013 / 9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Through you, to our witnesses, I'll give you a few stats, first of all, before I start asking questions.
Between 2000 and 2013, the overall temporary resident visa approval rate across the board was about 83% or thereabouts—it's pretty high. In 2012, Canada issued a record 235,000 visitor visas in China, a 158,000 increase over 2004. In 2012, 25,245 study permits were issued, an increase of 235% since 2004. Of course, China was the number one source for immigration in 2012, with 32,990 permanent residents admitted.
We have other methods to get into Canada, especially for Chinese students when they graduate here, through Canadian experience class. You all acknowledge that, right? We also have a very robust parents and grandparents program, which is at about an 86% approval rate around the world right now, correct?
Ms. Go, I am having a little bit of difficulty. In your early comments, you suggested that visa officers abroad show a personal bias or prejudice. These stats don't support that.
Mr. Wong, you had mused that perhaps Canadians don't want to see any more Chinese in this country, or more Chinese—words to that effect, correct?
Right now in Canada, there are over 1.5 million people of Chinese heritage. That's one of the biggest communities in this country, so I would say that doesn't support your claims.
I wanted to address that. I worked for a long time in the Canadian Forces. While in that job, I did a lot of multi-ethnic outreach as part of the Canadian Armed Forces, and of course I worked for Jason Kenney for two years, doing a lot of multi-ethnic outreach in the GTA. As you know, Minister Kenney reaches out quite broadly and does tremendous work with all communities across Canada.
Let's just get down to some questions.
Ms. Go, I'll start with you. The other day, CIC officials informed our committee that a number of years ago, far more interviews were conducted. However, they didn't find them to be an overly useful process in the vast majority of cases. I'd like to know from you, first, do you think there should be more face-to-face interviews conducted? And second, in your opinion, how does this affect efficiency and the integrity of the immigration system?
Mr. Wong, I'll ask you to answer the same questions.
9:30 a.m.
Clinic Director, Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Thank you.
I appreciate the stats. I have read those stats myself.
I am talking about the experiences that we have seen at the clinic. I venture to guess that many MPs have seen similar situations.
I still believe that having a family here.... I mean, I have no idea how many of the 83% are here for the business tour or are here to visit Canada without any family members. My view is that having a family member is a disadvantage to someone who wants to apply for a visitor visa. I'm not talking about visitor visas in general, but for people who want to come visit family members.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON
Could you answer the question? I only have a few minutes.
9:30 a.m.
Clinic Director, Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
I think that interviews by the same officer who has the intention to reject someone might not be that useful. The interview will not change someone's mind if they believe that.… If they're still stuck with that dual intention issue, which is not valid under the law, or if someone still thinks that this person, despite all the proof they have provided—and even if you produce a house deed, your pension plan, you have kids in China—they still believe someone is going to stay here, then yes, of course an interview is not going to change anything.
Maybe an interview by a different officer or by a different system, by a separate office, might be different.
9:30 a.m.
Executive Director, Chinese Canadian National Council
Yes. As I mentioned earlier, with regard to face-to-face interviews, perhaps one pilot you could consider is face-to-face interviews for people you're about to reject.
For me, the issue is a speedy appeal. A lot of people are applying on a very time-sensitive basis. For example, there's a wedding here. Somebody's given birth here. Somebody's ill here. They can't wait for a more formal appeal mechanism, so perhaps a face-to-face interview, if you're about to reject them, gets referred to another officer for that. Then you could determine where there could be some efficiencies in the approach on a go-forward basis.
With regard to the stats, I really appreciate those. I would ask, what are the stats for approvals of people who were rejected the first time and who applied a second time? When you look at that, then perhaps you could see where there could be some efficiencies in the approach.
Let's say it's 50% approval on your second time around, when you apply. Well, then it seems very wasteful to have rejected them in the first place.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON
You mentioned an MP's job in doing this. As an MP, I do this a lot. All of my colleagues do. Oftentimes I have found that people have incorrectly applied the first time, and that has been the problem. And when they did correct it....
I'll get you the stats, because I don't have them handy right now. But it's a good question—
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON
Oh, 48%: there we go.
Oftentimes it's been because somebody has made the error in the first place, on their own. So you can't blame the visa officer for not being able to not process an incomplete application. You can't put that at their feet. That's not fair.
In terms of just addressing my colleague, this country doesn't do anything out of fear. It does things out of security, and out of concern for Canadians who live in this country, and making sure that the wrong people don't get into this country. We've had lots of examples of foreign criminals coming in here and creating havoc with crimes, murders, and worse. In fact, we just got rid of a guy, after 25 years of appeals, who was a terrorist.
That's one of the reasons why Canadian visa officers abroad are well trained and highly culturally sensitive to where they are. These guys have been all around the world.
Am I out of time?
