Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 11th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims (Newton—North Delta, NDP)), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I would like to start.

Madame Groguhé, you have the floor.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you for giving me the floor, Madam Chair.

We are resuming this meeting after it had been suspended, and it is very late: it is 11:25 p.m.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

She called the meeting. How does this...?

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

We have been getting used to these unusual schedules over the past few weeks. Yesterday, I sat until 12:15 a.m., and I got home at 12:45 a.m. I can tell you that my night was very short, hoping that...

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order as to relevance.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

As we know, the practice, both in the House and at committees, is that members who speak get a certain amount of latitude when they speak on an issue. As my colleague has just spoken for less than a minute, I would like to see where she is going with this, and then I would be able to judge the relevance or lack thereof.

I can see that we're going to have a fun evening tonight.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I just want to go on the same point of order, because we're talking about relevance. I have to say that I have read Mr. Shory's bill inside and out and I have not once seen anything related to someone walking home, or when they got home, or a late night.

I want to know how soon we're going to get to the relevance of your statement. Quite frankly, it is going to be a long night, and I'd like to actually debate this bill and talk about it, rather than hear about someone's night or what they did when they got home.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. James, Madame Groguhé has the floor. If you would let her carry on, maybe she will be able to communicate with you as to the relevance of the points she makes.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is just a reminder and a nod, if I may say so, to the incoherence of this government that is forcing us to spend impossible hours in the House for debates.

Let us come back to the issue at hand. I would like to point out that we have gone from an in camera meeting to a public meeting, which will allow us to resume debate on this Conservative motion which, I might remind you, seeks to extend the deadline by 30 days in order to submit a request to Parliament to broaden the scope of Bill C-425.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Could you hold on just a little, please, Madame Groguhé?

A certain level of conversation to the side is fine, but when the conversations become so loud that the chair can't hear clearly what is being said, I think they begin to interfere with the operations of the committee. So I would ask people to be respectful.

Thank you.

We will go back to you, Madame Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Things have changed since yesterday. Yesterday, the Conservative majority on this committee forced us to go in camera. We were opposed to that, saying that the debates that we could have had in public could have helped us make progress on this matter in a much more transparent fashion. Today the government has changed its mind and is asking us to continue this meeting in public, something that we had adopted earlier.

As concerns the fact that we were forced to go in camera, the way it happened was...

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I want to remind all my colleagues that up to now we have been in camera, and we have to be very careful that we don't make reference directly to what was said in camera, or things such as that. I'm just reminding people that “in camera” has a meaning and that meeting in camera has a purpose.

I will be applying the same rule right across the board. I want people to be aware of that.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

As a point of clarification, does that mean we're not allowed to talk about the colour of wedding dresses?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

No, you can talk about the colour of wedding dresses as long as you don't reference the exact conversation that occurred while we were in camera. For example, you could ask another question of any member about the colour for the wedding dresses, if that's your desire, if that's how you want to use up your committee time, but it would not be right for you to reference what happened in camera previously.

Look, the chair is just going to try to chair and follow the rules we have. When I remind people about being in camera, it's also to remind us about the obligations and responsibilities we have as parliamentarians and about the respect we have for our institutions and our committees. In camera has to mean something. Because it has to mean something, I'm just trying to explain to people how, why, and when they can or cannot make reference to something. I was not trying to make any other point at all.

I am going to go back to the speaker, unless I have a point of order.

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Shory?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Really, Madam Chair—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Do you really want this bill discussed today?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Absolutely. I honestly do not want the chair to use the gavel every two minutes. If the chair has some rules to set up, I request that the chair set up the rules in the beginning.

The minute we get engaged with the speaker, the chair picks up the gavel and starts a new ruling. So I suggest and humbly request that the chair set up whatever rules the chair wants.

This is a public meeting. Canadians are watching. I do not want the chair to use the gavel every two seconds or every two minutes and set up a new set of rules.

If there are certain rules the chair wants to address to the committee, they should be addressed immediately.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

So far, whenever the chair has used the gavel, it has been to get the attention of the committee and to explain the rules that exist. I needed to remind people of the rules that exist about in camera simply because a member referenced something that happened in camera. So I reminded people of that. That is my job.

If the room gets too loud and there is too much conversation, it's my job to make sure the committee functions with a certain amount of decorum. And this chair will continue to exercise that right.

I really want to say to my honourable colleague sitting at mike 14 that I would be very careful with your choice of words, if you are now beginning to say that the chair is making up the rules. That is not the case. The parliamentary secretary, in this case, would agree with me that the chair is following the rules that exist, and did explain that, as is required of the chair.

There is no way that anybody who sits in this chair can allow anarchy to take place, and I do not plan to allow it.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You were following parliamentary procedure.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you. That's what we're trying to do.

Mr. Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. I think your intervention and clarification about what can be said and what cannot be said with respect to in camera meetings was correct.

I believe Madame Groguhé has the floor. Could we continue on with the meeting, please?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much, Mr. Menegakis.

Thank you, Madame Groguhé.

We have another point of order.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Actually, it was on the same point, Madam Chair. Your ruling clarifies it, so I'd like to strike my name....

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

We're going back to Madame Groguhé, who has the floor. She can be interrupted only by a point of order.

From now on, when members have a point of order, I'm going to ask that they state their point of order and then speak to it, rather than speaking and then trying to work out what that point of order could be.

Madame Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As concerns your observation to the members of this committee, I would just like to mention that I was particularly referring to the process used by the government regarding in camera meetings. I am certainly not going to address the content of the in camera meeting. This imposition of an in camera meeting by the Conservative majority is certainly regrettable, but not at all surprising. It is perfectly representative of the attitude that prevails both in the House and in committee. It was particularly clear during our study of Bill C-425.

This study was hampered by the government's will to considerably amend the content and scope of Bill C-425. All of this was orchestrated by the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, who dictated his amendments to the committee. These amendments were then introduced word for word by his parliamentary secretary.

The main consequence of this was to transform a private member's bill into a government bill. Given the refusal of the committee chair to recognize that these amendments were in order, the committee produced a report, without the consent of the opposition, calling for the scope of Bill C-425 to be broadened. The purpose of this was to impose the minister's amendments.

Obviously, this is the aspect that I am talking about today. We expressed our concerns, which were echoed by the Speaker of the House of Commons when the request concerning the adoption of the eighth report was submitted to him. A point of privilege was raised concerning this report. This is what I stated at that time, that is, on April 30.