Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

It appears on pages 60 and 96.

Right from the beginning, if we're talking about the philosophy of law, page 3 clearly states that Canada is a parliamentary democracy. We have a history of parliamentary life. It is upheld by a long tradition. With that in mind, I will occasionally provide arguments and make points to support my view.

That speaks to the very heart of why I object to this 30-day hoist motion. I think it's wrong. It think it gives rise to a permanent imbalance as far as our choices and options go. I will tell you what that imbalance is all about, from a philosophy of law standpoint.

Previously, I don't think anyone on this committee made any arguments about the philosophy of law underpinning this debate. If anyone can say that I am repeating myself, please tell me now. According to the information I was given, I don't think this approach has been used.

Obviously, this could become time-consuming. The argument I am going to make is largely supported by O'Brien and Bosc. This was supposed to be the subject of my cousin's Ph.D. thesis. I will try to keep it under 10 or 15 hours. We're talking about the philosophical debate discussed in an 800-page long Ph.D. thesis. That's not always easy.

You should understand that the devil is in the details when it comes to the philosophy of law. And the details abound. With that image in mind. I would point out that O'Brien and Bosc's publication looks more like a bible than a procedural authority. And for that reason, this could be a long debate. But so long as an attack on parliamentary life is at issue, in other words, the philosophy of law, this matter certainly warrants debate.

Although I may not have convinced all of my colleagues of the relevance of having this debate, I hope that I have at least convinced them of the newness of this approach before the entire committee.

Yes, there is a dichotomy. As the saying goes, vox populi, vox Dei. The people's voice is the voice of God. In the Middle Ages, that basically meant the people had to be listened to because they were the ultimate authority. Theirs was akin to the voice of God. That expression means that when the people speak, they must be given fundamental, lasting and painstaking respect. The expression changed over time, with “pro Dei”, or for God, being used. It is done for God.

Therefore, my commitment to the people is an act of God, an act of faith. The most beautiful expression of that concept, my favourite one, is found in Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. He described democracy in less than 100 words, the most important of those being “the government of the people, by the people, for the people”.

I respectfully submit that, in no way, does Mr. Dykstra's motion reflect any of those elements. In fact, I would even say it negates them. That is why I'm telling you there is a violation. This fundamental principle has been attacked.

We are here for the people, the people we represent. We want the people to have clear legislation. O'Brien and Bosc even highlight that fundamental principle on page 3 of their publication. They say we are the people, the representatives of the people. The words “by the people” imply that the people must see their voices reflected in these laws and be comfortable with them. In that respect as well, a serious violation has certainly occurred.

I am not saying Mr. Dykstra did so intentionally. Indeed, the philosophy of our law holds that we assume people are acting in good faith, and that is the view I take with everyone. But I believe this motion gives rise to a violation. Can it be fixed? Yes. House of Commons Procedure and Practice clearly states that it can.

The Latin expression medice, cura te ipsum means “doctor, heal thyself”. It is possible for things to go amiss, as they say, resulting in a major mistake. People make mistakes, it happens. The procedures of our law provide for that eventuality. If, however, we consider the philosophical perspective and try to find the right balance—which is hard to do—the procedures cannot be used for flawed intentions. The administration of justice must not give rise to the demise of justice.

The late Justice Steinberg taught me that in a law class. The administration of justice and its procedures must not lead to its demise. I unfortunately get the sense that the motion on the 30 additional days does not in any way adhere to the philosophical rules of our parliamentary law. It is not viable. It goes against all of our procedures.

Did you want to say something, Mr. Chair?

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I would. I'm giving you a fair bit of leeway on this. Your topic may be interesting, but I'm not so sure it's relevant. I'm going to ask you to wind up, because, quite frankly, I'm not convinced that what you're saying is relevant to the motion. I have given you all kinds of leeway. You've talked about some very interesting things that you've derived from O'Brien and Bosc, and that's fine, but I'm going to ask you to wind up.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

A point of order, if I may Mr. Chair, about what you just said.

You made it very clear that we must not repeat what's already been said or raise matters you have already ruled on. You said, yourself, that I am not being repetitive, that I am not challenging your rulings and that I am referring to O'Brien and Bosc. And yet, you don't see how my remarks are relevant.

You are misleading me. I would ask that you clarify your comment because everything I am saying pertains to Mr. Dykstra's motion and the words of O'Brien and Bosc in House of Commons Procedure and Practice. I gave you the page numbers. Obviously, summarizing 150 pages from House of Commons Procedure and Practice in 10 minutes can't be done. It's akin to asking someone to summarize a 600-page Ph.D. thesis in 10 minutes. With all due respect, Mr. Chair, I have the right to speak and I will hold on to that right as long as I follow your basic instructions, which I am doing.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Monsieur Giguère, I've listened to you very carefully, and what you're saying, in my submission, is not relevant to the matter before this committee.

I've given you a lot of leeway, but my patience is wearing thin. I'd ask you to wind up.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Chair, you didn't give me an answer regarding the instructions you gave me. You gave me clear instructions—

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I have answered your question. I'm saying that what you are submitting may be interesting, but it's not relevant. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I tried to re-examine my comments in their entirety in light of Mr. Dykstra's motion, which basically seeks a postponement. He is asking for a 30-day extension, which he explains, and you accepted his reasons. With all due respect, I am telling this committee that this motion represents a violation. There are other solutions that would be acceptable to everyone.

Does someone have a point of order?

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Giguère has already actually gone through those, even though I pointed out that the five arguments that he has already presented have already been made by other members of his party here at committee.

Other than that point, he has actually already made the argument of what five other ways we could have dealt with this issue. He is just about to start describing those five other ways again. I would submit that he's repeating his argument again.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. Sims, you have the floor.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Ms. Sims asked for the floor.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On a point of order before I resume speaking to this, I believe that my colleague in this case was following the rules made by you. He was making new points that none of us had made before.

I would ask the chair to reconsider and allow him to continue speaking.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I will take a few moments to consult with the clerks.

The difficulty is, Ms. Sims—

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, my apologies, if you are about to make a ruling...I was already on the list to speak on that same point of order.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Okay.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

You forgot about me again.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I know. I don't know what's happening to me. How could I do that?

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I don't know what I need to do to make sure that you remember me before you move on.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'll never forget you, ever.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, Monsieur Giguère was making his point. I asked you to use basketball, but you've been using baseball and the “three strikes and you're out” model. This time there wasn't those three strikes; it was just, “Well, Monsieur Giguère, you're being repetitive because one of the members said that you're starting to repeat yourself.” You didn't give him the opportunity to state whether he was starting a new point or repeating something he had already mentioned.

I do believe that the floor was arbitrarily taken away from the speaker at the time—Monsieur Giguère. I believe, Mr. Chair, that you should return the floor back to Monsieur Giguère.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Anyone else?

I did interject at least three times. You're right, I didn't say strike one, two, and three, but I did interject three times.

Ms. Sims, I have moved to you as a new speaker after Monsieur Giguère, and because I have done that, your point of order is not in order.

I see Monsieur Giguère is still on the list even after you.

That's not true?

6:15 p.m.

The Clerk

No, Ms. Groguhé.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

But she's not here.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

She'll be back.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

She'll be back.

Rightly or wrongly, I have said that you're the new speaker, so that ends it with Monsieur Giguère.

He's free to speak again if he wishes.

I'm not going to go through all this. I have interjected three times.

Ms. Sims, you have the floor.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Chair, we have a serious problem here. A parliamentarian has the right to speak for as long as he or she likes. In the same breath, you said that my comments were interesting. You may not find them as relevant as you'd like, but show me where in the blues someone else made the point I am making. And that point is the dichotomy that O'Brien and Bosc explain from pages 60 to 96 of their reference work.

The fact that you don't like my point of view doesn't give you the authority to take away my freedom of speech. What I'm saying is relevant. O'Brien and Bosc are, after all, relevant.