Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

2:20 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Madam Chair, I'm happy to have an opportunity to speak to this motion. This motion asks for an extension of 30 days to study private member's Bill C-425, An Act to amend the Citizenship Act (honouring the Canadian Armed Forces). Though its title refers to “honouring the Canadian Armed Forces”, we have learned through the 60 days of study we have already had on this bill that it is not really about honouring the armed forces. There is a small piece that honours some people who served in the armed forces, but there are other parts of the bill that go far beyond that.

I don't think at this point it is necessary for us as a committee to give that time extension as we've already spent the 60 days allotted for the study of a private member's bill in committee. As we know, a private member's bill has two hours of debate in the House at second reading stage. After second reading stage it is sent to committee for further study and to be reported back to the House.

When we did that study, we learned of the many flaws and the many different aspects in the bill, and I don't even know whether the sponsor of the bill intended them to be part of the nature of the original bill.

We know that many government members and the minister himself have spoken about the bill and have suggested amendments to it. We know that the government's amendment proposed changes to the private member's bill that made it something absolutely new, something very different. It changed the scope of the bill. The amendment proposed by the government members changed the bill dramatically. They knew it was flawed because of what was presented to us by all of the witnesses who came before the committee.

Let me go through some of the items that the witnesses and the government's own members identified as containing flaws, or some of the facets of this bill that they wanted to change, or that weren't appropriate, that may not have been in compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or may not have been in compliance with the Constitution. Whatever it may be, let's have a look at what our expert witnesses had to say, and let's have a little bit of a discussion about some of those things.

I'll just list a few for now, and I'll try to get through as many as I possibly can.

First of all, in the bill itself, the sponsor of the bill refers to “act of war”. Many have identified that this is not a term that Canadian law understands or recognizes. The sponsor spoke of “pathways to integration” and increasing pathways to integration for permanent residents and newer immigrants to this country. Issues of statelessness were introduced and outlined for committee members by many people.

The concept of revocation of one's citizenship, which is clearly part of the bill, was highlighted by many of the witnesses who appeared before us.

Another issue is that this bill casts the net far too wide. Too many people get caught up in this bill. Even the sponsor of the bill himself mentioned that he recognized that maybe some people were getting caught in the cracks of the legislation, for example, people who were child soldiers or people who had foreign convictions.

Another thing is that if this bill went forward, it would actually create multiple tiers of Canadian citizenship. I'll make sure to go through that as well in as much detail as I can to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to understand what our experts have told us.

Another topic that was brought forward is the concern that was raised about ministerial discretion and accountability. What we've seen with this current government, especially in immigration-related bills and others, is that more and more powers are being given to fewer and fewer people, so rather than have a tribunal or a group of experts make decisions on things, it's actually the one minister who has more and more discretion on many more topics.

Another problem that was identified was with respect to citizenship wait times and the government allowing queue jumping for asylum seekers and refugee claimants in this country. The government was very clear that it didn't want people to jump the queue, but when there's a citizenship wait time of years in this country, the government is trying to have people jump the queue.

One more topic that I will be touching on is how we can actually honour people who have served in our armed forces.

These are some of the topics, Madam Chair, that I will be delving into throughout my discourse.

Pardon me, Madam Chair. I think I just made a French-to-English bad translation. I used the French word instead of the English word.

3:05 p.m.

A Voice

It happens.

3:05 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Instead of saying “speech”—discours—I said “discourse”, which is not proper English. My apologies, Madam Chair.

To touch on one of the topics I identified, I will speak about the term “acts of war”. The first problem with this, Madam Chair, is that the term is not defined in Canadian law, yet in the bill itself the sponsor says that if somebody commits an act of war, they need to be punished. The experts who came before the committee clearly and repeatedly identified that it would be very problematic because of the terms “war” or “declaration of war”.

We heard from Colonel Michael R. Gibson that the use of the term “war” or the term “declaration of war” in legal language has actually gone out of fashion in international law, not just Canadian law, since the Second World War, yet our government today wants to bring that back. Sorry, it's not the government. I should be correct. Even though it is highly supported and pushed by the government, it is coming to us in the form of a private member's bill rather than a government bill or government business, so I shouldn't say “the government”. However, it does seem very much that the government is the one putting forward this private member's bill and trying to push it through the back door with less scrutiny, less oversight, less accountability, and less transparency, because it just seems that it doesn't want to do the proper due diligence on such a large topic as the changing of our immigration legislation.

This bill would change our immigration legislation and revoke the citizenship of Canadian citizens. The way it is right now, it would create statelessness. We are signatories to the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, yet this bill, as the sponsor has put it forward and as the government continues to push for it, would create statelessness.

Earlier in our debate, we heard government members say that they want to do due diligence on the study of a bill, and that is why they are putting forward this motion to extend the study of this bill for 30 days. It's apparently a new practice. They've all just woken up and want to do due diligence, but what we've seen time and time again with this government is that they move closure. Earlier today we voted on yet another closure motion. For all those people joining us from their homes who may not know what closure is, it's one form of time allocation. It's one form of stopping debate in the House of Commons. This government has moved motions to stop debate on bills in the House of Commons more than 45 times. At the time I wrote down my notes, the number was 45 times.

June 13th, 2013 / 3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I have a point of order.

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Yes, welcome to our committee, Ms. Rempel.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Thank you. It's always a pleasure to work with you.

Madam Chair, page 1049 of Bosc and O'Brien states:

In addition, the Chair may, at his or her discretion, interrupt a member whose observations and questions are repetitive or are unrelated to the matter before the committee.

I appreciate my colleague's comments, but the motion is pursuant to Standing Order 97.1 (1), and the committee is requesting an extension of 30 sitting days to consider Bill C-425. The argument I believe my colleague opposite is making is that an extension would be relevant in order to see further debate of the content.

I therefore challenge the relevancy of her claim and would challenge you to ask her to move to her next topic or close her debate.

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

That's a point of order and I will respond to it.

The motion that we are debating is an extension, and the extension is in order for things to happen to a piece of legislation. The member is at liberty to bring into the arguments that she is making today the contents of the bill, as to whether she will or will not support the extension, because it's very hard to talk about an extension in a vacuum. In order to come to an understanding of why she's going to be voting one way or the other, she has every right to refer to the contents, because that's going to be what will be informing her decision.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Madam Chair, is it my understanding that you've ruled against this point of order and that my colleague should not move to the next topic, given the question of relevancy?

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

What I've done is I've given you my understanding.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

So you've ruled against this point of order?

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Yes, the chair has ruled, but I have somebody on the same point of order.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I challenge the chair, and I'd like a recorded vote.

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Okay, state your challenge.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I challenge the concept of relevancy given that my colleague is arguing for an extension of the debate on this bill, which is what the form and substance of this motion is. I believe you've ruled against this according to page 1049 of O'Brien and Bosc, and I challenge your ruling on this matter.

3:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I have a point of order. I challenge the challenge of the chair's ruling. If you look at O'Brien and Bosc, there is no debate.

3:15 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Yes. Okay, sorry. I was in another world where we did debate challenges to the chair. I want to thank my colleague.

What you're voting on actually is that the chair's ruling be sustained. That's what you will be voting on.

It will be a recorded vote.

(Ruling of the chair overturned [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The motion is defeated to sustain the ruling of the chair.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I think what she said was that we challenge the chair, so, Madam Chair, my understanding is that your ruling on a point of order was defeated. Is that correct?

3:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Yes, that's right.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Then, just for my understanding, would any arguments that my colleague might make to argue against the extension of the study of this bill be ruled out of order?

3:20 p.m.

An hon. member

That's right. It was voted on.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

I will also remind the member to stay on topic.

Okay, we're back to the speaker.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I guess my colleague who just raised that point of relevancy missed the piece at the beginning when I stated why it was relevant. Maybe I should repeat it so that she can actually know why it is relevant, why the topics that I'm speaking about are relevant, and how it does make sense for me to continue. Let me go back a little bit, just to help my honourable colleague who is joining us.

As she very correctly stated, this motion is actually requesting an extension of time of 30 days beyond the 60 days that are already allocated for the study of this private member's bill in our committee. The common practice according to O'Brien and Bosc is that a private member's bill is given 60 days of study time in a committee. Then at that point the committee hears from witnesses who are experts in the field usually, or people who have personal experience, people who are front-line workers, whatever it might be. We hear witness testimony over that 60-day period, of which the schedule is set by the government. Even though, Madam Chair, there is a subcommittee that decides the setting of the schedule, the schedule is actually controlled by the government because the government has a majority on the subcommittee as well. That schedule is set by the government, and then we go through our study and hear witness testimony, which we did.

During that study it was very clear from the many, many witnesses we heard there were many issues and items that were considered to be flaws. There were some things that were recognized as positive moves forward, such as recognizing some people who may have served in the armed forces, recognizing the commitment to our country, recognizing our commitment to our flag, recognizing the commitment to the maple leaf. Then what happened was the government proposed amendments—

3:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

We have another point of order.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Madam Chair, again referring to page 1049 or O'Brien and Bosc, it states, “In addition, the Chair may, at his or her discretion, interrupt a member whose observations and questions are repetitive or are unrelated to the matter before the committee.”

I argued on the latter half of that statement before. I'd like now to order that my colleague opposite's comments are repetitive. I believe that the point on the need for robust witness testimony has been made several times here in the debate on this. I would say that any testimony related to the need for robust witness testimony is in fact repetitive. She should be moving to the next point of content in her speech.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

I would remind my colleague to remain on topic and to continue with her discourse.