Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

June 13th, 2013 / 1:15 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm now at point B of the B'nai Brith brief:

B. Statelessness The bill as it stands applies to both citizens and legal residents of a country other than Canada. It would potentially remove Canadian citizenship from either. A person who is a legal resident of another country but not a citizen of another country, on losing Canadian citizenship, would become stateless. Canada is obligated by international treaty to avoid statelessness, the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness to which Canada acceded in 1978. The obligation has an exception worth nothing, that a person may be deprived of nationality even if it creates statelessness where the nationality has been obtained by misrepresentation or fraud. This exception means that the revocation provisions in the current law conform to the dictates of the convention. The possibility of loss of Canadian citizenship now in the bill for someone is a permanent resident of another country but not a citizen of another country should be excised. We note that Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Jason Kenney on March 21 asked this committee to consider an amendment so that only those with dual citizenship would be deemed to have renounced their Canadian citizenship under the provisions proposed in the bill. … We note the observations of former Justice Minister Irwin Cotler in the parliamentary debate on Bill C-425 at second reading on February 15 that a private member’s bill does not go through the same constitutional scrutiny as a government bill before it is tabled in the House of Commons. The right to citizenship is a constitutional right.

It’s important to remember that. The way I see it, these are very important observations that MP Irwin Cotler has made, but it is clear that they are not made unanimously.

Pursuant to section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the right to citizenship is a constitutional right. Later, I will probably compare the bill and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which will let us consider from that perspective the amendments that we want to make to this private member’s bill.

Revoking citizenship for whatever reason of a person born in Canada, raised in Canada, whose primary connection is Canada is arguably a violation of the constitutional right to citizenship.

These remarks, like many others I have read so far, are really crucial. This involves a direct violation of the constitutional right to citizenship, according to section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which stipulates that the right to citizenship is a constitutional right.

A person born in Canada who has a connection primarily with Canada and has little connection with the country of dual citizenship should not become subject to deemed renunciation/revocation of Canadian citizenship under this law.

We are again at the very heart of amendments that some want to make to the bill and that ensure that acquiring and maintaining citizenship is completely overhauled. By the way, if I may say so, these measures are going to create two-tiered citizens. We need to say that the right to citizenship is a constitutional right that can and must be respected.

I will now address the part of the B’nai Brith brief that covers foreign convictions:

d) Foreign convictions The fourth category raises the question of the appropriateness of taking into account a foreign conviction. Many repressive governments label their opponents, particularly their armed opponents, terrorists. We must not take that labeling at face value.

Obviously, we know some democracies, which claim to be democracies but are not, that do this. We have seen it already. Unfortunately, every day certain people are labeled terrorists because they simply wanted to oppose a repressive government in a particular way. So be careful.

Not every act of rebellion against a repressive government is an act of terrorism. The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act denies refugee protection to those subject to “lawful sanctions, unless imposed in disregard of accepted international standards”. There needs to be a similar caveat here. The bill should say that a person could have his citizenship revoked for a foreign conviction for terrorism, “unless imposed in disregard of accepted international standards”. ii) Additional grounds Beyond that, once Parliament is expanding the grounds of revocation, as it is with this bill, why limit the grounds to acts of war, treason and terrorism even more broadly encompassed?… This anomaly, at first glance, may not seem that significant since a person complicit in war crimes, crimes against humanity, terrorism or genocide is unlikely to disclose that complicity on application to enter Canada and, if he or she did so, would likely be refused entry. However, the Nazi war criminal experience has shown us that sometimes it is easier to establish complicity in massive criminality than misrepresentation on entry, since entry records may have been destroyed and memories of entry officials unreliable. If we can prove complicity in massive crimes, but not lying on entry, that complicity should be enough for revocation. Right now the war crimes unit in the Department of Justice has a policy for Nazi era cases that the department would not seek revocation unless the department is satisfied that the person is complicit in war crimes or crimes against humanity. However, that is an internal policy only and not a legal requirement.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

On a point of order, Mr. Dusseault.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chair, I’m intervening for clarification.

I looked in the House of Commons Procedure and Practice to try to find the procedure relating to the vice-chair. I see that there are currently two vice-chairs in the room. Which procedures are used to determine who will take the chair’s place?

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

Normally, the practice would be that you would start with the first vice-chair, but it doesn't really matter. It's beyond that. Usually it's something worked out between the two vice-chairs as to who is sitting, and I was asked to come and fill in.

Ms. Groguhé, please continue.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will summarize what I've said. Obviously our witnesses' arguments are telling. They provided some clarity and clarification by sharing certain concerns and by discussing where problems may arise.

In fact, we truly believe that it is essential to pay significant attention to those comments. Obviously, in terms of what I have presented, we think it is important to consider all these guidelines I have presented, be they national guidelines under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms or international guidelines established by the UN or by other international conventions we have signed and ratified. It is essential that we put forward bills that take into consideration these warnings, if I may call them that, that must provide a democratic and fully responsible framework for the measures put forward in certain bills.

We have seen that the amendments proposed by the minister went beyond this initial bill and led us down a path where we are creating, as I said, differences between citizens in a country that, let's remember, is a land of immigration. We know that a lot of people flee their countries and choose to come to Canada and become Canadians so they can benefit from the democracy and freedoms offered by our great country. This bill will create two classes of citizens and, by the way, it will make a distinction between someone with sole citizenship and people with multiple citizenships. Those people may be at risk of losing their Canadian citizenship, even if they were born in Canada and have never been to the other country where they hold citizenship. Canadian citizenship must not be viewed as a driver's licence that could be taken away at any time.

I would also like to come back to what I was saying—I'm not sure if it was yesterday or earlier this morning, but that doesn't matter—about the decision by the Speaker of the House, in response to the question of privilege raised regarding the tabling of the committee's eighth report, which covers expanding the scope of Bill C-425.

The Speaker of the House ruled that the eighth report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration was admissible, strictly speaking. However, he had significant reservations about broadening the scope of the bill. He referred to the absence of explicit jurisprudence in the matter and the dangers related to that.

Therefore, Bill C-425 cannot necessarily be amended in this manner, and we had to be very careful. However, the government does not seem willing to be careful, since it came back with this new motion requesting a 30-day extension to study Bill C-425 in order to broaden its scope.

Clearly, the fact that a private member's bill is being turned into a government bill does not respect the tradition that goes on in Parliament. If the minister wants to implement a legislative agenda, he should do it directly through a government bill, not through a private member's bill.

At the end of May, after their first setback from the chair, the government came back with a new motion presented in committee. This new manoeuvre is a big concern for us, Mr. Chair, because it leaves room for major slip-ups and it especially would set a precedent that might be damaging for the jurisprudence relating to how bills are handled by Canada's Parliament.

Mr. Chair, these practices that aim to bypass the customary procedures and processes are becoming particularly worrisome and require constant vigilance.

Let's go back over a few facts that deserve particular attention.

On March 21, the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism appeared before the committee. During his testimony, he literally dictated numerous amendments that broadened the scope of Bill C-425 considerably and radically changed the meaning of the initial version.

It should be noted that these amendments fit on two pages per official language, while the document tabled by the member for Calgary Northeast fit on a single page, including the French and English versions. Already, without even taking the time to read the proposed amendments, we can see by the number of pages that these amendments will really distort the bill in question which, itself, fit on only one page.

These amendments, which were the only ones proposed by the Conservatives, were then tabled by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration at the very end of the process of studying the bill. Therefore, the members of the committee were not able to ask witnesses about what could have become the very essence of the bill.

Let's remember that the legislative text tabled by the member for Calgary Northeast, in addition to being significantly broadened, was completely changed. In the end, less than 10% of the final document came from the initial bill. Even the title of the bill no longer had any purpose because the section on honouring the armed forces became purely secondary and was really swept aside. In fact, the amendments were no longer in line with honouring of the Canadian Forces.

That shows you just how imposing the amendments were, so imposing that the amendments proposed by the minister were rejected by the chair. Indeed, the chair had no choice but to reject the amendments. There was no other solution. The chair had to make that choice and say, pure and simple, that the amendments proposed by the minister could not be received. Since they went against the initial principle of the bill, they were deemed inadmissible by the chair of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

As a result, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration had to table a report in the House. Mr. Chair, the report tabled by the government was quite worrisome. It requested that the scope of the bill be broadened to include aspects that had nothing to do with the Canadian Armed Forces, when that formed the very basis of Mr. Shory's bill.

Two related problems stem from that.

First of all, the minister has just skirted around the work done by the committee members by imposing his amendments on his parliamentary secretary and, obviously, the committee. Then—and this is the heart of the matter—the bill…

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Excuse me, sorry—

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

Ms. Freeman.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Again, I'm never really sure of a particular procedure. That being said, it's almost two o'clock. It's 1:40 p.m. As all members of this committee know, normally members are expected to be present at question period and for statements from two o'clock until three o'clock, or until the end of question period and statements by members. It is a right, obviously, of members who are elected to this House to be able to go and express their concerns through statements, as well as to ask questions of ministers and parliamentary secretaries during question period.

I realize that this room is very close to the House itself, so it won't take long for us to get there. That being said, given that we're getting close to that time, just so that members are aware of what the chair plans to do so that the committee could express its feelings on this, I was wondering if we could decide what our procedure was going to be, whether we were going to break at a certain time for question period and then return.

If I could get clarification from the chair on that, it would be extremely helpful.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

Thank you for the point.

On the same point of order, we will go to Dean, and then Rick.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Mr. Chair, I note that it's 1:39, as a matter of fact. I think if I was attacked at this moment by a wild beaver severing one of my limbs, I could still make it to the House of Commons with plenty of time to be in question period for when questions actually begin at 2:15.

Thank you.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

Okay, based on that particular comment, I do think it's important that we're there for question period, so I'm going to follow Mr. Dean's recommendation that 15 minutes after or 14 minutes after—

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

No. I have a point of order.

He didn't make a recommendation, he was just suggesting that—

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

I was commenting on the member's comment.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

—it only takes five minutes to get to the House. I'm suggesting that this is a critical piece of legislation, a critical amendment on the extension that we'd like to see passed. If there's an urgency to get to the House, I'd be happy to have the vote and all of us could spend—

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Yes, why don't we do that.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

—question period and whatever other period they'd like to spend there. But, Chair, you won't get unanimous consent to break for question period or for members' statements. We want to continue. We want to work on getting to a vote on this motion that I've moved on the legislation, so let's keep working.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

We're going to Ms. Sims, Pierre, and Ms. Freeman, but before we do that, I want to confer with the clerk for a moment.

Okay, going back to the speaking order, we have Ms. Freeman next, followed by Ms. Sims, and I keep on saying “Pierre” because I'm afraid that I'm going to really butcher your name. It's Pierre-Luc Dusseault. You would think I'd know how to pronounce it properly. My apologies.

We're going to go with Ms. Freeman. Then we'll go with the other two members, and if there are any members from the Conservative caucus you can just indicate that.

On the same point of order. This is all about the idea of the vice-chair's ability to suspend.

Go ahead.

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thanks, Chair, for allowing me to speak to this again.

I don't want to seem hysterical or insane in any way—

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

You never do.

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

—but that being said, I was deeply offended, and I don't understand what my colleague Mr. Del Mastro was insinuating when he was talking about being bitten by a beaver when I brought up question period.

I believe this is something that is a fundamental part of the way this House functions. Members of the opposition and members of the government are able to ask questions, through the Speaker of the House, to ministers and to parliamentary secretaries as to the state of affairs.

If Mr. Del Mastro has such little respect for the process that he would prefer to be bitten by a beaver and somehow make it here in 20 minutes from Peterborough, I'm not sure how he would do that. He seems to think that's possible.

Chair, I am also deeply offended that he was not even able to listen to me for the one minute I was speaking just now. It makes me wonder whether or not he or any of these members have been listening at all. I was distinctly saying that with 20 minutes until members' statements, I think it would be nice for this committee to decide what we are going to do ahead of time.

I specifically referred to the fact that we are very, very close, and it wouldn't take us very long to get there, but that I would prefer to know ahead of time whether or not we'd be going.

That being said, it seems there is so little respect for accountability in this House and in this Parliament by members of the government, that they believe we should not....

Chair, there is a lot of distraction. It's quite frustrating. It's very hard to get a point across.

I'm not sure how to take it. I'm definitely very offended.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Chair, on a point of order or privilege.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

I think that because we're dealing with a point of order, Ms. Freeman has the floor. I think we have to provide her the courtesy to be able to explain her thoughts.

We can't necessarily interrupt a point of order with another point of order. I would ask that members refrain from trying to distract Ms. Freeman from being able to articulate what she feels is an important position in regard to the matter before the committee right now.

Continue, Ms. Freeman.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thank you, Chair.

I'm very grateful for how fair you have been. It has been an interesting morning. I have definitely felt intimidated by my colleagues on the other side several times while I have raised points.

That being said, what I was saying is it is extremely important for us members to be able to attend question period, despite all our other obligations as members. We, as MPs, are always making the time to go to question period and to go to votes because that is part of what we do, and that is what people elect us to do. As legislators we are here to keep the government, that is, the executive branch, accountable.

It is clear that the parliamentary secretaries sitting across from me at this table today do not believe in accountability, because they're scoffing at the idea that we would have the opportunity to ask them questions.

You would know, Chair, that they're not even obliged to answer for real. They can stand up and say absolutely anything they want, which this particular colleague of mine has done on numerous occasions.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Kevin Lamoureux

Could I get you to wind up? I'm sure you'll appreciate that I will be affording them the same opportunity to respond, and the same sort of behaviour would be expected in terms of courtesy to allow them to continue speaking.

You can continue.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Mylène Freeman NDP Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Absolutely, Chair. I will wrap up.

It was just to express my deep desire to go to question period today, to make sure we keep this government accountable. I will find it extremely unfortunate if, when this committee votes on whether or not to go, we do not. If the government members were to vote against it, I think that would just be further proof of their lack of accountability, lack of transparency, and disregard for procedures of the House.

Thank you very much, Chair.