Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

My understanding was that the only person, just from reading in here, who could make a decision on whether a privilege had been breached was the Speaker. Also, in order to get it to the House I would need a majority vote from this committee, and then a decision would be made in the House. The actual privilege decision is made in the House. But you are in the chair and you have just explained something to me. Thank you.

Can I proceed now with explaining why I feel that my privileges have been violated?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes. Go ahead.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

As an elected member, both in the House and at committee, I have a duty and a responsibility to represent constituents, as well as, under the guidelines in this book, a right to certain kinds of processes.

I feel that your rulings on the limitation of my ability to debate an issue and to therefore put forward coherent arguments on the need for an extension really interfere with my privilege to be able to speak and to put forward my case on a motion that is before the committee.

Before this life I have been in many formal meetings headed by chairs and all kinds of things, and I know the things that can happen there. But in all the time I've been in Parliament, Mr. Chair, this is the first time I've had such a narrow interpretation put on, first, the subamendments and then the amendment. We were told when we were at the amendment stage to just deal with the amendment because when we got to the main motion we would get to speak to the main motion. Now, instead of the full wording, because it's the full wording that was moved—and I'm not going to read the wording to you again because I have read it to you before. The two paragraphs that are the original motion as moved by the parliamentary secretary, my colleague across the way, are what is before us here at the committee.

When it talks about an extension of 30 sitting days, it's the only motion here. None of the wording preceding that sentence is here. Also, if we were just seeking a motion to extend for 30 days, without any reason to, then I would say that would be considered arbitrary and capricious and just being a troublemaker, so to speak.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. Sims, are you returning to the point of order?

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

No. I am actually speaking to why I feel my privileges are being restricted.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Okay.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I want to stress that again. In order to explain that, I have to go back to the motion that is before us, because the motion is not one sentence; the motion is both paragraphs. We're not dealing with a subamendment or an amendment that was moved afterwards. When Mr. Dykstra moved this, he moved both paragraphs; he spoke to both paragraphs and here we are dealing with both paragraphs. For me, as a parliamentarian, to be told that I do not have the right or I am not going to be permitted to talk to the whole motion as it sits here does, I believe, very severely limit my parliamentary privilege.

It's one of those things we guard very dearly, Mr. Chair. As you know, both in the House and here, there are very few things that are open to the opposition members of Parliament. One of those is their right to speak on motions that are there. When the motion is presented, I believe we—as elected officials, once we have the floor, in an orderly manner and following the rules of the committee—have a right to speak on those motions. It's because of that that I feel my rights are being trampled upon, and it's because right in this whole motion—and I think you have to agree the whole motion is in front of us, not a part of it that one person can select, to say, oh, this is the only part. It actually talks about an extension of 30 sitting days to consider Bill C-425. Then it goes on to say what the bill is. It further goes on to say that it be granted the power to expand the scope.

We're not seeking an extension just so that we can sit here and meet ad nauseam. The extension the government is seeking is to get that expansion. So unless I can talk to that—and this is where parliamentary privilege comes in, because if I cannot talk to the motion that is on the floor, then my rights are being limited in one way or another.

I believe that as an elected official, who has very few rights under this majority government, one of the few privileges I do have as a parliamentarian is to be able to speak according to the rules. And according to the rules here, when it's my turn to speak, I can speak. You know, relevancy comes in, absolutely. I can speak on motions. But now, suddenly, I'm hearing I can only speak on one little sentence in a motion with many sentences. That, really, is where I believe my privilege as a parliamentarian is being restricted and is being violated.

I take my elected office very, very seriously, both when I'm in my riding and when I am here in the House. I think you know that I'm not shy about speaking on different issues; it doesn't have to be just in my critic area. I exercise that right on behalf of my constituents regularly, and will continue to do so.

I am continuing to make this a point of privilege at this time because I feel that it's not only my rights as a member of Parliament but the rights of the people who elected me and sent me here—their rights are being restricted as well.

When I look at the rules that exist around privilege...once it's raised, I do realize that I get to make my case, and then the committee gets a chance to deliberate as well, and to eventually vote. I also realize, as I'm raising all these points of privilege, that I need to get a majority of parliamentarians, many of whom I have heard defend parliamentary privilege and the privilege of backbench MPs and all of us who get elected.... I'm hoping they will support me in this and give me an opportunity to make my arguments before the Speaker in a fulsome way.

None of us should take a breach of parliamentary privilege lightly. It is to be taken very seriously by every one of us. To fully explore it, I would need to see that going to the House, and when it's in the House I will gladly put forward my case as to why it needs to go where it is.

As I was saying previously—and I'm going to try to make some new points on this—elections come and go, but our parliamentary democracy and the rules we abide by are here. One of the things that it behooves every one of us who sits on this committee to do is...yes, we can try to stretch the rules, which we do, but at the same time, one of the areas we have to see as sacrosanct is when a member is feeling their ability to express their point of view is being narrowed to the point where...I would question whether we need to have a debate, because this kind of interpretation violates my privilege. You could have an amendment moved and then it's yes or no.

It was very hard to sit through the subamendment and then the amendment and then be told I would get an opportunity to speak on the main motion, but now I'm on the main motion and I'm hearing ruled over and over again that I can only speak on one sentence, and that's the last sentence of the motion. That, to me, does not seem to be the right way for us to be carrying out our parliamentary duties and practices.

It is with that in mind....

Chair, am I—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'm just trying to determine if more votes are coming, that's all.

You can proceed.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Okay. Can I just get a sip of water?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You may know more than I do. Maybe I should ask you.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Never, Chair. I would never assume to know more than you do.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We don't know.

You still have the floor.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

Votes will come and go. What we're seeing here is a reflection of what I've seen happen in the House over and over again—about parliamentary privilege and the right of MPs to represent their constituents, and their ability to speak on a variety of issues being limited through time allocation.

In this committee we're seeing a restriction of my privilege to be able to speak, not through time allocation, in this case, but by redefining which part of the motion is on the floor. That, I would say, is way outside the limits of what can happen at a committee. The motion has not been amended, and the chair did rule he was not going to accept any other amendments, which surprised me, but the chair has ruled, so the motion that has to be debated, the extension, has to be the whole motion moved by Mr. Dykstra. At no time has he amended it; you have said you won't take further amendments to delete everything but the last sentence.

Therefore, I would argue, Mr. Chair, that my privileges as a parliamentarian have been violated.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

4 p.m.

An hon. member

[Inaudible—Editor]

June 17th, 2013 / 4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

No, I'm sorry. A point of privilege is not debatable.

4 p.m.

An hon. member

A point of order.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

A point of order? We don't even have a point of order. We're in the middle of a point of privilege. You can raise a point of order after we've dealt with the point of privilege.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Sir, I've been around a long time, and when points of privilege are raised, the chair hears from various parties as to the value of the point of personal privilege, and I—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

It's not debatable, Mr. Harris. I'm sorry.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Chair—

4 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

People can offer their comments on whether—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

It's not debatable. That's the third time I've said it.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Chair, my understanding is—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

It's not debatable. You've concluded your remarks. I'm now going to make a ruling on whether there is a point of privilege.