Evidence of meeting #135 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Mills  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Ramez Ayoub  Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.
Marta Morgan  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Paul MacKinnon  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Harpreet Kochhar  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Salma Zahid  Scarborough Centre, Lib.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

As the honourable member must know, all cases are treated on a case-by-case basis, based on their merits. I cannot talk about individual cases or a group of cases, due to privacy laws, and the honourable member must know that. I cannot answer that particular question.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

This is not private.

Just to be clear, Mr. Chair, I'm not asking for individual cases. I'm asking for an aggregate number based on the question.

Is the minister willing to provide the aggregate number of times he has used his ministerial authority based on requests made by the group of people I've mentioned and would he table that with the committee?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I'm not in a position to discuss specifics regarding certain cases, because of privacy laws, but I'm happy to meet the requests of the member if it's general about our approach to cases and so on—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I will take that as a yes.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

—which is, as I said, on a case-by-case basis. I'm not going to be able to provide the member with specifics on any cases, due to privacy laws.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Again, related to the resources allocated to MP support, has the minister, minister's staff or any member of the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship been requested to provide documents to the RCMP in relation to the investigation related to MP Raj Grewal?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

No.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Raj Grewal is under an ethics investigation for inviting Yusuf Yenilmez to meet with the Prime Minister.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

How is this relevant at all to our conversation around supplementary estimates?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'm happy to provide relevancy. It's with regard to the resources provided to Mr. Grewal in support of any casework inquiries that may come through the minister's department. This is my relevancy in terms of allocation of resources.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

If you're speaking on a point, would you address me, please, not the minister?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Sure. Sorry. I'm just thinking. I'm tying it in to how the minister has been using these resources. Thank you.

This is preamble. On October 11, 2015, the minister posted a picture to his Twitter account with Mr. Yenilmez and his “large team”, thanking him for his help in campaigning.

Minister, are you aware of or do you have any reason to suspect any abuse of MP Grewal's position advocating for immigration—

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

I am raising a point of privilege, Mr. Chair. This is a clear attempt to try to impute the Prime Minister.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

—per the resources that are allocated....

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

There's a point of order being raised. Just as you have raised one, there is now one being raised on this side.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

The member is simply trying to take us off on a line of questioning that has nothing to do with supplementary estimates, in an ill-fated attempt to try to.... I don't know what she's trying to do, but she has clearly demonstrated that there is no link to her line of questioning and what we are here to examine, which is the supplementary estimates that have the minister and the officials here in front of us today.

They have already told her they cannot speak, due to privacy laws, based on any individual cases or situations.

I would ask you to rule that, as she continues to try to draw specific individuals in and ask for specific information about specific cases, that is not what the minister is able to do and not what he or his officials are here to do today.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Ms. Rempel.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you are aware, because we've discussed this so many times in this committee, there are resources. In fact, we've had officials in front of committee talking about the resources allocated to provide support for members of Parliament with casework. This subject has come up on both sides. We've had multipartisan complaints about this, on whether or not the casework resources provided to MPs and members of the public, even in terms of our immigration consultants study, are adequate.

The questions I am asking, Mr. Chair, are on whether or not there has been an appropriate use of those resources by the minister and a current member who is currently under ethics investigation. I believe this is directly relevant given the fact that we are here to examine the estimates and the appropriateness of their allocation—how they're used. I have, in each and every one of my questions, drawn it back to that point.

To my colleague opposite, I would also note that I did ask for the aggregate total. I am asking how much service Mr. Grewal and other people I've mentioned have gotten from the minister as part of the use of these resources as allocated under the supplementary estimates, which I believe is in order.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Mr. Ayoub.

4:05 p.m.

Ramez Ayoub Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Today, we are trying to obtain specific information. If, at a committee, we ask what services the minister's team provides to other members in general, that is one thing; but if we attempt to obtain information on a particular member, that is something else. We are not authorized to do that here. Questioning the minister on particular cases is not part of the committee's mandate. We are wasting time and, unfortunately, we are using the minister's time poorly even though we have important matters to discuss.

If the member across the way wants to obtain more information on a member and the use of specific resources, she may make a written request outside of the committee. The fact is that she's preventing the rest of the committee from working while we should be discussing important immigration issues that are of concern to Canada. We are not here to discuss former member Mr. Grewal's particular case. He is no longer an MP. I find it regrettable that we are wasting other members' time and that of the minister and his team, despite the fact that we are facing certain situations in Canada.

I am somewhat surprised by Ms. Rempel's behaviour, as she is really concerned with immigration matters in Canada and sometimes makes judicious interventions in the House on that topic. Today, we have the opportunity of moving the immigration file forward and allowing Canadians to understand what the government is doing in that area. And yet, the member is not using her speaking time to do that.

I am going to stop here. I could go on at length and waste everyone's time, but I don't want to do that. I have questions for the minister so that we can move the immigration file forward. I would like my colleague to do the same.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We'll have Ms. Rempel, then Mr. Whalen, and then Mr. Maguire.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Chair.

To my colleague's point, it is actually, per the rules of Bosc and Gagnon, my determination whether or not I feel my time that is allocated is being best spent with the minister. As reference, I would point to page 1016 of Bosc and Gagnon, where it states that the questions and discussions at meetings related to the estimates “are generally wide-ranging”, and on page 1078, that there are “no specific rules governing the nature of questions”.

In each of my questions I have put forward very detailed information regarding how this is relevant. Again, to my colleague, I would remind him that the minister does expend a significant amount of resources, public funds, tax funds. This is what we're doing here. We're examining the use of taxpayer funds in supporting MPs and other people in casework.

He does, as I have established in questions with him, have the authority under subsection 24(3) to direct immigration officials to make determinations based on his own will. I feel it's very relevant to understand how much time has been allocated to the friends and associates of a member of Parliament who is currently under investigation by the RCMP, given that the minister has been pictured with one of these people.

I would point out to my colleague opposite the optics on this particular point of order. We have my Liberal colleagues here who voted against putting the minister under oath on this particular thing. That doesn't look particularly wonderful. In fact, Mr. Chair, I would argue that if this is ruled out of order, it looks like the minister and my colleagues opposite have something to hide.

Similarly, I would also observe that the extensive delay that we saw earlier in this meeting, when we had to suspend to determine whether a motion that was clearly in order was in fact in order, would be another example of this.

I'm not sure why my colleagues would not do their job as parliamentarians. They don't hold government positions. Their job is to hold the government to account.

Let me ask these questions because I want to know if there is something wrong here. That means that each and every one of us, and each and every one of our constituents have been held at a disadvantage. Frankly, I would hope that the minister would just say, “Nothing to see here, folks. There are no anomalies.” He'd be happy to post the aggregate data, which isn't confidential, on the number of case inquiries that Mr. Grewal, these various people that I have read, have made to him. Then we can clear this matter up and the public can rest confident that this is in fact, per the review of the supplementary estimates, an appropriate use of taxpayer funds.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I have two speakers left.

I am already prepared to rule on this, but I'm also willing to listen to Mr. Whalen and Mr. Maguire.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

A number of items were raised by Ms. Rempel in the context of this point of order that I feel I should speak to. It's going to take me the better part of 15 minutes to do that.

The first issue would be with respect to whether this is adequately within the scope of supplementary estimates (A), whether there are any changes in supplementary estimates (A)—

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Chair, on a point of clarification, if I may....