Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 27th, 2019

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Mooney, you outlined some concerns, actually, that are very similar to those in my riding of Surrey Centre. People come in, whether they're working in restaurants, in farm labour or in other labour-intensive jobs for which the requirement for English language perhaps is not so high. They work for several years, but unfortunately at the end they're not eligible for permanent immigration.

Can you elaborate on how big a problem this is? I like your suggestions, in fact, about how we can perhaps alleviate the language testing for some of those professions, but how big is this problem, and in which industries is it predominant?

[Philip Mooney]

It's a significant problem for anyone whose first language isn't English or French, especially if their first language doesn't have the same alphabet—possibly Turkish or Mandarin or Cyrillic-based. Those individuals have a very hard time writing, and the problem is the language test. You must meet a very high level of competence in four areas: reading, writing, listening and speaking.

Now, my wife tells me I didn't pass the listening test, but I still got to be a consultant. That's one of the key areas. The simple case is that you could have a chef here from another country who doesn't have a great education but is making $70,000 or $80,000 a year, has been in the country for 10 years on a work permit, but cannot qualify for permanent residence simply because they cannot write a decent essay.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

Your other concern was about employers having to ask again after they've been deemed to have a labour shortage in their profession. As you said, an adjacent company.... In my case, I have a lot of trucking and logistic companies, and every single one seems to be having a shortage. They all have to apply; they have to prove it again and then they get a dozen LMIA workers, temporary foreign workers. Then a year later, if they want to expand, they get another contract, and they have to wait another several months to get it.

My question to you is this: If you have been watching this labour market longer, do you think it might be ripe for abuse if it gets too loose, or is there room to manoeuver without having high levels of abuse? You'll always have a little bit, but....

[Philip Mooney]

Typically, the abuse doesn't happen because a business is growing and they need workers. Typically, the abuse happens because someone in the community wants to bring in people who aren't qualified. That's a small level of abuse. The biggest level of abuse is from people who abuse the workers who come in by not paying them an adequate wage.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Would that be more of an enforcement issue?

[Philip Mooney]

Absolutely. We've come a long way in the last 10 years, when an employee who was paid half the minimum wage to do a job was told that if they didn't like what the employer was paying them they could take them to civil court. Today, employers must pay the median wage and they are inspected. All of our clients get inspected virtually once a year. Even if they've been in business for a long time and they are doing all the right things, they get inspected. You can expect what you inspect.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

My last question is, has there been any evidence that any Canadian companies are using temporary foreign workers or LMIAs for the purpose of just getting cheaper labour? They have that available in Canada, but they just don't want to pay that level; they want to pay a cheaper rate. Have you seen any evidence of that?

[Philip Mooney]

Sure. There are some small firms.... There was a cleaning company in Nova Scotia where the owner was charged. The workers complained. We've seen that abuse at a fairly consistent level all along. There are bad people in the world. Part of it has to do with the recruiting industry overseas. Other parts just happen to be bad people here who promise people everything. They're in a position of control over their foreign worker. They hold onto their passports or they tell them that if they complain they're going to be deported.

For as long as I've been in the business, the law has always been that if you lose your job, you don't have to leave the country. You don't have to leave until your work permit expires, even if it's a year or two down the road. You have time to find another job, but that's not what abusive employers say.

The level of abuse at that stage can only be done.... I guess it's the same as it would be for speeding or other things. You have to expect that there is a level of non-compliance, so you must set up a system for compliance. Ten years ago, we didn't have any—

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you. Sorry to cut you off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Mr. Ayoub, you have the floor for a minute and a half.

[Ramez Ayoub, Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank my colleague.

As has already been said, the unemployment rate is at its lowest point in 43 years. However, we also hear that more recruitment needs to be done, and thus that we need more immigration, eventually. How can we reconcile the expected decline in the immigration levels in Quebec and the increase in labour requirements? What is the point of view of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec on this matter?

[Michel Cournoyer, Economic Consultant, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec]

You are quite right to bring this up. At the very least, this decline in immigration levels must be very brief and immigration should be increased rapidly afterwards. We have to give Quebec the time it needs to make the current changes to the permanent immigration selection process, but we hope that as early as next year, immigration levels will be increased.

[Ramez Ayoub]

In your opinion, would a more gradual decrease in immigration, spread out over time, cause an economic slowdown, given the employment requirements of Quebec businesses as compared to the needs in the rest of Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I will ask you that you provide very short answers.

[Michel Cournoyer]

Indeed, in 10 years, there will be a 1.5% decrease in available labour in Quebec, whereas there will be an increase of approximately 2.5% in the rest of Canada, if I remember correctly. This is all the more important for Quebec.

[Ramez Ayoub]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Mr. Tilson, you have the floor.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I have a brief question, Mr. Chairman, and then Mr. Maguire will continue.

I have a question for Mr. Mooney and Monsieur Audet. On the language test issue, one of the complaints I get from constituents is about the language problem—that people coming to these jobs can't speak English or French adequately enough.

You have made a number of recommendations with respect to the language test. Are you suggesting that the language test be watered down, or would it be more appropriate to say that the language training is inadequate?

[Philip Mooney]

I think it's fair to say that not everyone has the ability to learn a language at the same level. We already recognize that there could be a different language standard, for example, for citizenship. We're talking about skilled workers going to permanent residents—people who are living in their homes, working at jobs, being productive and adding to the Canadian economy. Yes, they may sound a little different from their neighbour, but I don't think they are the problem.

I believe that where there is a language problem and where you need help is on the family side, where you have parents or spouses coming to this country who don't speak any English at all because there is no requirement at all for English or French. Helping those people adjust.... We know that they can go shopping and they can do other things.

When you're talking about skilled workers, first of all everyone has to have a basic understanding of French or English to even get approved for their work permit. It's a question of the level at which you have to speak English. I am sure the vast majority of high school students at grade 12 level couldn't pass the current standard that is set for skilled workers, especially on the writing side.

Except, of course, for my five grandchildren. They would do fine.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

We're talking about temporary foreign workers. That's what your issue is. We're not talking about the next generation. We're talking about people performing their jobs adequately, whatever that job may be. Some may be skilled; some may not be skilled.

I'm just repeating to you a concern that constituents—who, I'll admit, are predominantly English-speaking—have given to me, which is that the language skills of some—not all, obviously—are inadequate. I'm just surprised. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said, but I get the impression you're saying that the test is too rigorous, as opposed to saying that the language training that should be given by the government or an organization within the community is inadequate.

[Philip Mooney]

Again, I think we're almost violently agreeing here, because we have individuals who have been in this country for several years who are adapting well. By definition, those aren't the kinds of people your constituents would be talking about. While we can't specify who they are, they're talking about people who really can't speak English at all, or they can't make themselves understood to those people.

I'm talking about people who are productive in Canada now. They have to be able to speak and listen quite well in virtually every job, but they just can't write as well. That's one of the key issues. It's really a technical point more than a perception point. One good thing about a technical point is that a technical solution can solve it. I have seen too many clients and people whom I've helped come to Canada who are very good people—very productive, high-earning people—but they don't like tests.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I don't either.

[Philip Mooney]

Me neither.

I've seen CEOs of companies who can't become permanent residents because their first language is not English and they don't do business in English because they work with their head offices. But they can talk and they can listen and you wouldn't know from day one. Those are the sorts of people I'm talking about.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Maguire will continue, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

You have about three minutes.