Evidence of meeting #147 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Syed Hussan  Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
Dennis Kuijpers  Owner, Farming, Superior Weanlings Ltd.
Edward McElhone  Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Llewellyn Opperman  Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Salma Zahid  Scarborough Centre, Lib.
Josée Bégin  Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Stephen Johnson  Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
Vincent Dale  Assistant Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Dan Albas  Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC
Gilles Bérubé  Director, Labour Market and Skills Research Division, Department of Employment and Social Development

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)) Liberal Rob Oliphant

Good morning. Seeing a quorum, I am now going to call this meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is meeting number 147 of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration to study migration challenges and opportunities for Canada in the 21st century.

Thank you to our witnesses. I'm very glad to see you here as we look at several issues. Some of you have been with us before and some have not.

I usually like to begin with those coming to us by video conference, just in case we have a technical problem.

I think we'll begin with Mr. Syed Hussan, from the Migrant Workers Alliance for Change. I believe he has appeared before us on this study already. Then we'll go to Superior Weanlings Ltd., Dennis Kuijpers.

Mr. Hussan.

3:35 p.m.

Syed Hussan Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change

Good afternoon. As you introduced me, I am the co-founder and coordinator of the Migrant Workers Alliance for Change, and also of Migrant Rights Network. Together, we aim to represent all of the self-organized migrant and refugee groups in the country.

Today, on behalf of our groups, we want to make one primary recommendation, and that is that all low-wage temporary foreign workers must be able to come to the country with full, permanent resident status on arrival, with their families.

In addition, we call for permanent residency status for migrant and documented workers already in the country, open or sectoral work permits, and full access to health care, education, national housing standards, recruiter regulation, employment insurance, pensions and the ability for workers to negotiate their own contracts.

I'm going to walk you through the life of an average worker, so you get a sense of what we're talking about.

Most workers, outside of the seasonal agricultural worker program, SAWP, come to the country having paid a recruiter between one and two years' salary, in home country terms, which is anywhere between $2,000 and $10,000. It's important to note that these recruiters are Canadian. This is not a foreign issue.

In order to pay this money, the workers have to take on loans, as do their families, which means that when they arrive, they are already under economic duress. This makes it very difficult for them to assert very basic rights. In many cases, the jobs promised either do not exist, or, if they do, are not as promised. This is why we ask Canada to create model regulations for its provinces that specifically allow for licensing of recruiters and registering of employers, and that hold them jointly and financially liable for all recruiter fees.

Now, all of these workers are on employer-specific permits; that is, they are tied to their employers. Changing jobs requires finding a new employer, who may need to apply for a labour market impact assessment, at a cost of $1,000. Then the workers may need to apply for a work permit. This entire process, from job search to starting the job, can be anywhere between three to six months, or up to a year. During this time, workers are not allowed to work, and generally cannot access employment insurance. With high debts from having to keep two households, temporary foreign workers tied to employers by work permits are essentially indentured. This is a system of indentured servitude.

The seasonal agricultural worker program contract allows employers to defer days off to a more opportune time. We have many farm-worker members across the country who, in peak season, work three straight months without a single day off. The subcontract and the TFW contract are supposed to ensure that workers are paid hourly, but we know that in at least a quarter of all cases, workers are doing piecework. They are being paid on the basis of the baskets of fruits or vegetables they pick. As a result, many workers are making below minimum wage.

In our experience, an average farm worker, at the end of a two-year period, has had $20,000 in unpaid wages stolen from them. For a domestic worker, that's almost $10,000. This is why we insist that migrant workers must have a seat at the table when these contracts are being designed, because as currently imagined, they are essentially exploitative.

Current labour laws, which are largely provincial, exclude agricultural workers from minimum wage, overtime pay and unionization. Domestic workers live in employers' homes. There's no clear start or end time to the work. As a result, our members are sometimes working 10 to 12 hours a day. At other times, they are working only four to five hours a day, but are being paid in a 10- to 12-hour period for only seven hours. When they are working four to five hours, they cannot have their needs met.

Most temporary foreign workers live in employer-provided housing, without privacy, with curfews and unable to control what they eat. Workers in agriculture are housed with pesticides. Domestic workers are sleeping on living-room floors, without having a separate room. I just recently spoke to a domestic worker who told me that her employers only allow her to shower in the gymnasium in their condo. For a week, when there was no water in the gym, she did not shower. This is not an unlikely story. These are common things. This is why we insist on a national housing standard for all employer-provided housing, rather than the disparate system that currently exists.

When workers are injured on their jobs, particularly in agriculture, they face de facto medical repatriation. You are injured here, but you are sent home to die. Therefore, we call for an end to unilateral removal of migrant workers, particularly due to medical repatriation. We call for full universal access to health care, without the three-month wait period.

When workers leave or they're between jobs, they're often unable to get basic employment insurance or pensions. We're calling on Canada to ensure that particularly seasonal agricultural workers and other workers get access to pensions, parental benefits, EI and supports after injuries, even after they have left the country. We need portable benefits, benefits that can travel between countries.

Recently, we've seen a tremendous increase in funding in ESDC and CBSA to do labour enforcement. Let me be perfectly clear: the ESDC is completely incapable, as it's currently designed, to deal with worker rights violations. There are no complaints. There are no forms. There's no training for the officers. We believe that there must be proactive enforcement, but the current system, including what they're doing in B.C., is the wrong direction, and we need to go back to the beginning and start over.

By and large, however, the fundamental issue is permanent resident status on arrival.

After years of organizing, the Liberal government recently announced regulations to create an open work permit for workers facing abuse. What's most important about this is that there's finally an acceptance from the government that temporary immigration and tied work permits create the conditions of risk and abuse. That's great, but we don't need a system where certain workers have to apply for the work permits and then get them after they've been abused. We need just open work permits for everyone.

As it's currently designed, we've identified 13 major gaps in the regulation, and we have not seen the timeline for dealing with them. This includes discretion for officers to decide what is abuse, while they've received no training on labour violations. We insist that this program not be discretionary and that the permits should be minimum one year, be renewable, give access to health care, be processed in an expedited manner, and not include sex workers and seasonal agricultural workers.

The immigration minister also announced just last Saturday a new caregiver program with sectoral permits and allowing for family members to accompany workers. This is welcome news, provided it is not accompanied by regressive measures. We have a media announcement and no details. We will be watching closely to see the devil in said details, but we call for such permits, sectoral and open work permits, and family reunification, so workers come to the country with their families, and for it to cover all temporary foreign workers, not just caregivers.

An interim program has also been announced for the tens of thousands of workers who were left out by the Conservative government's discriminatory caregiver program launched in 2014.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I just need you to draw to a conclusion, please.

3:40 p.m.

Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change

Syed Hussan

The interim program needs to be changed so that it includes all the workers.

There's more to say, but I will leave it at that, and I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Very good, thank you.

Mr. Kuijpers.

3:40 p.m.

Dennis Kuijpers Owner, Farming, Superior Weanlings Ltd.

Thank you.

Superior Weanlings is a hog-farrowing operation located in the Prairie View municipality in the town of Birtle in Manitoba.

The farm has been owned and operated by James Sanders since 1994. In 2016 James sold half the shares to me with an option to buy the remainder when financing can be obtained.

Over time it has become steadily more difficult to find and train staff in agriculture, especially for the hog sector. Young Canadians generally do not want to do this type of work or even live in a rural area removed from larger population centres.

In 2006, we started using the temporary foreign worker program to attract staff. This was a godsend for us. We were able to attract hard-working reliable people, most of whom wanted to live in a rural area.

Although using the program has always been somewhat of a challenge as far as meeting evolving government requirements is concerned, the difficulties have never been as enormous as they are now. If a solution cannot be found, our farm will have to close its doors. This will be a pity. Businesses like ours provide jobs in rural, isolated communities. We buy grain from local farmers as well as many inputs from rural businesses. Our employees, including the temporary foreign workers, pay taxes. If the farm could keep its staff levels where they need to be, we would be more profitable and pay more in corporate taxes. Our temporary foreign workers are young and healthy people and are unlikely to be drawing on Canada's social safety programs.

The biggest complaint we have with the temporary foreign worker program right now is with respect to the role that embassies play in this process. Recently the embassy in Kiev refused to grant a visa to a prospective employee. The reason given was that the officer felt the applicant did not have significant funds. This is both ridiculous and unacceptable. Superior Weanlings has to pay all travel costs from the applicant's country of residence to our place of work. If the employee does not stay for any reason whatsoever, we must pay all travel costs for his return. The rules are quite clear. Is the officer uninformed as to the rules? Are there additional parameters being kept from us? If so, why are we not being told? If we knew what these secret requirements were perhaps we would be able to make efforts to satisfy them.

We do not hire temporary foreign workers in an effort to pay less money than we would have to pay Canadians. We are required by Service Canada to pay the prevailing wage as determined by them. Last year we spent approximately $6,000 for a professional firm to assist us with the paperwork involving foreign worker applications. We used to do this ourselves but it changes so often and has become so much more complex that we had to seek help. We spend over $10,000 on airfare and hotels to bring temporary foreign workers to and from Canada. We have to drive to Winnipeg to pick up workers when they arrive in the country, and a good deal of time is needed to assist them with obtaining necessary documents such as social insurance numbers and Manitoba medical numbers. We also provide housing free of charge.

Recently Service Canada did an audit on one of our temporary workers. The particular person happened to be an exceptionally talented and capable individual. Although the required pay rate by Service Canada was $12.50 per hour, we had increased his pay to $22 per hour over a two-and-a-half-year time frame. We were told this was not allowed. We should have tried to find a Canadian if the job was at this rate, and if we were unable to do so, then we should have applied for a new LMIA.

Because this particular employee was only a week or two short of receiving his permanent resident status, no action was taken in this instance. We now have another employee who we want to promote and pay more. We have had to apply all over again. We cannot understand the logic of this.

When we advertise in Canada, we do not ask for relevant work experience or education. We are willing to train. These are also the parameters approved to hire foreign workers. An IRCC employee recently refused an applicant because he thought she lacked enough relevant experience.

We spend a great deal of time and money to hire these workers. We interview them via Skype, we check their references and we go through all of the hoops required by Service Canada. The time it takes from starting the requirements to the time before the prospective employee arrives is lengthy. It is usually between six months and a year.

For an unnamed officer at an embassy to arbitrarily dismiss the whole effort is just wrong. We understand that they have to make police reports and do other due diligence, but this case is nothing like that.

Service Canada has adopted a very strict regime regarding the housing we provide to temporary foreign workers. Every year the accommodations that we provide for our workers must be inspected by the fire commissioner's office. This requirement was instituted a few years ago.

We understand that a few employers have provided substandard accommodations. The response was heavy-handed and punished the vast majority of employers, who understand that decent housing is an important ingredient to keeping staff satisfied. Service Canada could have created a code of requirement and a set of sanctions, such as fines, for violations.

The fear of random inspections would probably keep unscrupulous employers in line. Instead, each employer must pay $400 every year for every residence. If all rental accommodations in Canada had to face such scrutiny, the backlash would be substantial. We ask to be subject to the same rules and regulations to which other rental accommodations are subject.

Our final complaint is the length of time it takes to respond to an LMIA request.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I need you to wrap up fairly quickly, please. Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Owner, Farming, Superior Weanlings Ltd.

Dennis Kuijpers

It should not take more than two weeks after we submit proof of advertising and application. We are told there is a huge backlog. If that's the case, hire more staff and charge a reasonable processing fee of less than $250 per employee. If Service Canada cannot make this revenue-neutral, this commission should demand to know why. Bring back the expedited applications for all employers with a favourable track record.

Thank you for your time.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Mr. McElhone.

February 28th, 2019 / 3:50 p.m.

Edward McElhone Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and standing committee members.

I am a third-generation farmer on our family farm. I'm 42 years old, with an agricultural university education and a young family. I farm with my father, who is 70 years of age and looking to retire. We grow ginseng, tobacco and cash crops on a total of 1,100 acres.

Combined, my father and I own nine farms and lease four others. Annually we employ 20 offshore Mexicans and 68 Canadian workers, plus contract labourers during peak seasons. Our employee hours in a total year rank in the neighbourhood of 73,000 man-hours, and our annual wages are over $1 million.

We rely heavily on SAWP for our main labour force, because it's manual labour and because of the labour shortage in our area. SAWP has been great for us over the years. It has been beneficial, and we've been part of that program for more than 35 years.

Most of our offshore workers are here for up to eight months at a time. Some of them have been working for us for 25-plus years. We pay our offshore employees hourly wages to make sure that they are all making minimum wage per hour. Our bunkhouses are inspected annually and are most times nicer than what most people live in.

We dug into the temporary foreign worker program in 2014 to try to get somebody to help supervise the farms because of the growing paperwork. Since Dad is retiring, I need to spend more time in the office and doing the litigation part, and we need somebody to do my job. I do not have any family coming behind me; my girls are young.

After running job ads for several months with no valid responses, we turned to the temporary foreign worker program to find a suitable candidate. In the spring of 2015, the ServiceOntario office in Simcoe, Ontario told us we would never be able to bring in a temporary foreign worker because we do not qualify and a local labour source should suffice for our operation. While continuing to advertise for a farm supervisor, we received a response from an immigration consultant in Toronto, who helped lead us to hiring Llewellyn.

We first started talking with Llewellyn the fall of 2016. He came for an on-site job interview in the spring of 2017, and in 2018 his work permit was rejected by the High Commission in South Africa after over three months of waiting, for the same reason the other gentleman mentioned: non-sufficient funds to support himself. Well, that doesn't really make sense, because he's coming here to work and has already put forth the money to come to do an on-site interview.

It took another three months to reapply and get his permit, and his family was finally able to get here in the spring in May 2018. The cost for us was over $5,000 in fees, and for Llewellyn it was over $10,000.

Right now, Llewellyn is working on our farm, and his wife works at a local medical centre doing books.

At this time I'd like to turn it over to Llewellyn.

3:50 p.m.

Llewellyn Opperman Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Thank you for this opportunity to be here.

Mr. Chair, of the reasons for my leaving South Africa and accepting this job here, the first is that it was better for my children's education. Where I come from, it's not very good at this moment. The violence against us is not good. In my close family, I had six murders—grandparents, a nephew and three uncles.

As for suggestions, one is the process of the paperwork. Since Ted and I started talking until I got here, it took over two years. I think there must be an easier way.

For example, my friend recently decided to go to New Zealand. He did it himself and it took him three months and he did it all online.

I had to go through the same things as he did—police clearance, medical aids and all that—and mine took over two years.

The other thing is that the work permit is for two years. If it's possible, it should be lengthened it to give us enough time for the permanent residency, because I have been here almost a year now, so I have a year left.

I have three sons. One is 21, one is 19 and one is 16. The oldest one is at home because he can't get a student visa. The other two are in high school and they aren't allowed to work because I am on a worker's permit, so they sit at home. I want to be honest. It's not a good thing for boys to sit at home. Why are they not allowed to work, enough hours but not too much?

I left South Africa for a reason, and I think you can see my reason. I love South Africa, I love the bush and I love everything there, but because of reasons out of my control, we decided to come here, and I brought my whole family with me. I have decided to stay here.

That's why I came out of my own world when I phoned Ted and I told him in 2017, “Listen, before I accept your offer, I am coming to see you on my own cost.” I came here and I spent the week with him on the farm to see how it works. They treated me well and I thought, “Well, that's for me.” I went back home and we sold everything. I have nothing left back at home. My home is here now.

My kids are happy in school. Where I come from, my kids played rugby. Here we play football. Both my youngest boys played on their high school football team—first team, but you call it senior team. My youngest boy was rookie of the year. If they are happy, I am happy and my wife is happy. We are all happy.

Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, and maybe we'll say the same.

We will begin with Mr. Tabbara, for seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I know it's not easy to pack up and leave and start a whole new life in another country without the support systems that were around you before. I really want to thank you and welcome you here.

3:55 p.m.

Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

I want to ask you if you can maybe go into a little more detail. You said that, for New Zealand, it takes about a couple of months to get immigration, or relatively more quickly, but it took you around two years.

Can you just explain, from the beginning, the process you went through?

3:55 p.m.

Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Llewellyn Opperman

How did I come to get here?

I saw an ad in the local agricultural magazine in South Africa, a consultant offering jobs in Canada. The owner is also an ex-South African, but he is a Canadian citizen now.

I made an appointment. He goes to South Africa three or four times a year and meets people. I went to see him and gave him my resumé. He said, “Okay”, and he would try to find me a job.

It wasn't that long. He saw Ted's ad and we got connected. Ted and I had a Skype interview and then the paperwork started.

Then they wanted this, and then they wanted that. My wife did most of the paperwork. All I knew at that stage was that I told her, “Listen, this is never going to stop because every other day they want some other papers. What else do they want? They know everything, almost.” The most annoying thing on the program....

Then I came and saw Ted. We went back, so the LMIA started and then the work permit. That was the thing that was the biggest problem. We got rejected, and the reason we got rejected was not valid, because in the program under which I was applying to come to Canada, I did not even give bank statements on my application. That was not required.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

They refused you based on bank statements?

4 p.m.

Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Llewellyn Opperman

They said I did not have enough money to support myself while I was in Canada, but in the program that I was coming in on, I did not even have to submit paperwork regarding my bank statements. I came here, I landed and I started working. I didn't need that backup money. Then when we reapplied, all of a sudden, like magic, I was accepted. The sad thing about that, sir, is that because I got rejected and had to reapply, I had to pay again. Otherwise, no sugar; nothing, my friend. I had to pay again. As I told Ted, yes, you can talk about $1,500 as being a lot of money, but it's not a lot; if you take the currency where I come from, though, the sum of $1,500 is a lot of money.

Anyway, luckily for me and my wife, we were able to pay all of that stuff. We didn't have any financial problems. I know that other people do, though, and that it's a problem for them. That's why they won't apply. It's too expensive.

I want to be honest; I don't know who it is, but at the embassy in South Africa, the guy who's checking those papers—I think there is the problem. If he had rejected me on my way of coming into Canada, then I would not have been rejected the first time.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you.

Mr. McElhone, what did you do when you needed someone to work on your farm? First you tried to look for talent within Ontario, within Canada.

4 p.m.

Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Edward McElhone

Yes. Correct.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Where did you place those ads?

4 p.m.

Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited

Edward McElhone

We're constantly running job ads on Job Bank, Kijiji and Indeed. We've also branched out and done newspapers, and even some reserves, going to places where people have farming experience and who could use a job. At the end of the day, we're willing to train, but if you're bringing in somebody who's never seen a farm before, it's not advantageous to throw them into a supervisory role.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Absolutely. Our government has put forward a northern and rural pilot program, which will help alleviate some of the pressures that industry is facing.

Mr. Hussan, the immigration stream for low-wage positions has caps limiting the number of foreign workers who can be hired. Are these caps hindering the sector's labour demands? A lot of times we're seeing skilled workers who will get categorized as low-skilled. I would argue on the contrary, but we see a lot of skill shortages here, especially in the trades. Are you seeing in our system that it's kind of a hindrance or a barrier for these individuals to immigrate to Canada, as you've seen in your line of work?

4 p.m.

Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change

Syed Hussan

There are a couple of things here. First, we're talking about different programs right now. The gentleman who was speaking before is in a high-wage program where people can come here with their families and have access to permanent residency. Most temporary foreign workers do not have those rights, and they should have those rights. I just want us to be clear on what we're talking about.

Now, a number of caps apply. If you have a workplace with more than a certain number of workers, then you can't have more than a certain percentage of your workforce as temporary foreign workers. There are also caps on the length of the permits. For our members, who are all temporary foreign workers, the primary issue is that it makes it harder for them to change jobs. There is a limit on the number of jobs that are available, so if you want to leave a bad job, it's very difficult in a particular area because another factory has already reached its cap. As workers are forced to work for only employer-specific permits, it's very difficult to change jobs. That's the biggest concern we see, which is why, if there were open permits, people would be able to leave bad jobs. That's the primary issue. There's no labour mobility.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

So you would have liked—