Evidence of meeting #147 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Scarborough Centre, Lib.
My next question is for Mr. McElhone.
How long have you been hiring temporary foreign workers in your company?
4:25 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Mr. Llewellyn was our first temporary foreign worker. We had been part of SAWP, which is a stream that is considered to be different. My father was in it before me; we've been in it for 35 years. As far as the temporary foreign worker program on a work contract for two years is concerned, Mr. Llewellyn is the first one we have brought in.
4:25 p.m.
Scarborough Centre, Lib.
Before these two years, then, you were not hiring temporary foreign workers?
4:25 p.m.
Scarborough Centre, Lib.
There has been a discussion of the path to permanent resident status in the recently introduced changes to the caregiver program as a model to be considered. I agree that there should be a path to PR, because if you are good enough to work here, you are good enough to stay.
Do you have a sense, though, of how many want to stay and how many just want to come here? Sometimes some seasonal workers also come, save money and return home. What program changes are needed, if any, to better support those who are just looking to work here temporarily?
4:25 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
I can't really answer much of that, because I don't know about the caregiver part of it.
As far as the other part of it goes, none of the employees we bring in through SAWP ever have an intention to stay. Over the years, we have never had any of them who wanted to stay in Canada. They all wanted to return home. I do know farmers who have, but very few who come through SAWP actually want to stay.
4:25 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
They're coming for seasonal work for up to eight months at a time through an LMIA. That is just specific to seasonal work. The temporary foreign worker is a two-year program. That's different. It's a higher skill.
February 28th, 2019 / 4:25 p.m.
Scarborough Centre, Lib.
Mr. Hussan, would you like to add to that?
4:25 p.m.
Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
Permanent residency ensures rights. If people want to leave, they can leave. It's not about whether you can stay; it's the only way for people to get basic rights. That's how our system is structured. We're not saying let everyone stay. We're saying PR is the only way for people to get basic rights.
The second thing is, I would disagree. We have thousands of SAWP members across the country. By and large they all want the basic rights around minimum wage and overtime, they want their families to visit, they want basic health care, they want pensions, they want EI. All of that is only possible through the permanent residency system.
Are you saying that you've had workers for 35 years and none of them want to stay? Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about, because there are no workers who are coming for 35 years and then at the end of that don't want to have their families join them.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
I just wanted to mention this. You probably heard about the recent new caregiver program that our government put in place. That's ensuring that the caregivers who do come to Canada are able—as you mentioned in your testimony—to go from one employer to another, and they're not just strictly obliged to be with one employer.
What's your take on that?
4:25 p.m.
Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
I think the important thing is that's the announcement, but we haven't actually seen the forms. We haven't seen the details.
The government's announced sectoral permits. We support sectoral permits as an interim step to permanent residency on arrival. What was said earlier was that there's always been a path to permanent residence, but it includes.... It's not a path; it's a minefield. Most people can't get through it. We don't want a path, we want.... When I say “we”, I mean thousands of migrant workers who are our members across the country. They want permanent resident status on arrival, because any temporary stream creates the conditions for exploitation and abuse.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Just for clarification, the acronym SAWP has been used a lot. It's the seasonal agricultural worker program.
Also, I'd just like Mr. McElhone to clarify the issue of the 35 years that was mentioned there.
I had a question on open work permits that is relevant as well, if I could just get a written answer from everyone on that.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'll give you three more minutes, and you can take in those two questions.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you very much.
The question that I would like each of the speakers today to answer is this. If the IRCC started issuing open work permits rather than the current practice of a worker signing a contract with one employer, would that cause any challenges to the employers?
Could you just reply to that in writing to us, or perhaps answer it in a moment?
I'll let Mr. McElhone answer that first, and if there's time, maybe we can have the answer to the question I asked before.
Pardon me. There are two streams there that we're talking about.
4:30 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Yes. In SAWP, we've had workers for over 35 years, and I think I'd like to clarify that we have not always had the same workers. As to the gentleman saying that I don't know my workers, no, if I say they don't want to immigrate, they want to go home. They want to go to Mexico. They want nothing to do with staying here in the winter, and the reason we do know that for sure is that we have approached them over the years trying to say, “Listen; we will try to bring you in under the temporary foreign worker program.” We tried with workers whom we had already worked with, to try to bring them in. None of them wanted to do it. They wanted to stay where they were, and that's why we went elsewhere.
To your second question, on the open work permit, I would be strongly against that. I've put a lot of time, effort and money into bringing Llewellyn here, and the only thing I have is the fact that he signed a work permit to work for me for two years. If he has an open work permit, I could spend all that money, he could be gone in the second week and where am I? I'd be starting at ground zero with nobody. The most important thing is the actual need for the labour. In Llewellyn's case, it was the need for a supervisor. I would be against that because then I would lose everything I'd worked for and not have anything to hold onto.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Mr. Kuijpers, could you respond to that as well, please?
4:30 p.m.
Owner, Farming, Superior Weanlings Ltd.
Our farm is extremely remote. If you open it up, we have a bigger chance of the employees moving to bigger cities. That can cause a direct problem for us if they don't fulfill their two-year work permit.
On top of that, I currently have LMIAs. The problem is the disconnection between Service Canada and IRCC. I have LMIAs, because we don't have any Canadians who want to come and do the job. You can't force Canadians to do the job.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
For clarity, the issue is that temporary foreign workers are coming in for the full year, whereas seasonal ag workers are only allowed to stay here for eight months.
4:30 p.m.
Supervisor, Fox Sand Farming Limited
I agree with Mr. McElhone.
From my side, I don't have any problem. It's a big decision on his side, on my side—on any guy's side. I think it's nothing more than fair to commit for two years.
Really, I don't have a problem. Before you make a decision in life, you must look at it. If you make a decision, you've made that bed and you sleep in it. There's no way for chop and changing.
Thank you.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'm afraid we need to end there because we have another panel coming in.
Thank you all very much for your help with this.
We'll just suspend for a moment, and we'll change the panels to the next set of witnesses.
