Evidence of meeting #157 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultants.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Louis-René Gagnon  As an Individual
Dory Jade  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Gerd Damitz  Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Andrew Roman  Retired Lawyer, As an Individual
Alli Amlani  President, Inter-Connections Canada Inc., As an Individual
David LeBlanc  Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual
Ryan Dean  As an Individual
Ravi Jain  Lawyer, Green and Spiegel LLP, As an Individual
Lisa Trabucco  Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Windsor, As an Individual

10:50 a.m.

Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual

David LeBlanc

I think that Andrew's point earlier was that this is the first time that the existing regulator is going to be given the authority and the teeth to be able to fulfill the proper mandate.

What this committee has done is actually created a structure—you've allowed a structure to go forward—that, for the first time, will have true remedies and will have things built in.

To answer your question about what should be added, I think all of us secretly have a wish list. My wish list includes international student recruiters who bring people to private career colleges where they have no hope in hell of getting a post-grad work permit. They're doing it with absolute impunity because they're outside the country. Those are huge problems.

I meet with people all the time who say they sat in entrance exams for this college—and they show me the name of the college that's above the Canadian Tire store on Yonge Street— and they say they passed the entrance exams and gave them $9,000 for their first two semesters. I say congratulations, but when you graduate your certificate should get you a discount on the tires in the shop below, but that's all it's worth.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Mr. Roman, are we at the right point? You mentioned your organization itself being able to seek costs and also expropriate property or seize property in order to enforce awards.

Are you satisfied that the act, as proposed, gets us where we need to go in order to clear backlogs and have some real justice against consultants who are unscrupulous or incompetent, and also that the regulator that's proposed to evolve into this organization has the necessary capacity and tools to step into this role?

10:50 a.m.

Retired Lawyer, As an Individual

Andrew Roman

I think they will have the necessary capacity and tools, as you say. They already have very competent people managing it, who you saw yesterday. They have increased their staff size. They used to be very understaffed and a lot of the cases against the bad actors failed because they couldn't investigate properly. The complaints committee would send things back to the investigators who tried their best, but had no authority to seize documents. Now, the investigations and the hearings can be properly done for the very first time.

I am happy to see what has been happening. I think that this is a very big step forward.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Mr. Roman, you had mentioned that 5,000 people is a small association for self-regulation. But I come from Newfoundland and Labrador where my number on the rolls is 1,444, and my father's was in the low 300s and he's retired. We have fewer than 1,500 currently active lawyers in Newfoundland and Labrador but the self-regulatory regime works fine.

In terms of the $50 million to help establish—and the $10 million ongoing—and to fund these initiatives, do you think that is sufficient in the context? You made a comparison with the Law Society of Upper Canada.

10:55 a.m.

Retired Lawyer, As an Individual

Andrew Roman

I think the lawyers in Newfoundland must be more honest than the lawyers in Ontario, because we've had a lot of cases in Ontario.

The cost per case should go down under the new law—the cost of dealing with it—because people won't be able to drag them out forever and just out-wait you, and the investigation costs should go down because you should be able to get what you need the first time. You won't have to keep going back, trying to get more information and failing at it. That means the lead time between when someone's fraud is detected and when it's terminated should be greatly reduced and that will help protect the public.

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Mr. LeBlanc, in terms of the quantum that's proposed in the budget to allow us to achieve these measures, are you satisfied that it's going to put the organization in good stead, or the new regulator in good stead?

10:55 a.m.

Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual

David LeBlanc

Yes, I do.

10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Madam Chair.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

Thank you.

We just have have a few minutes left before the end of this panel, and it's on to the Conservative round, so I am going to ask some questions from the chair.

This morning, the Auditor General released a report and there were some very interesting statistics with regard to service standards in the call centre.

As compared to other agencies, IRCC had no target for timeliness, whereas other departments had timeliness standards of 80% of calls answered within 10 minutes. The average wait time in other organizations within the government was about five minutes, but IRCC's was 32 minutes. The other statistics cited were that for people calling into the agency, 70% of calls were prevented from reaching an agent—70%—only 22% were answered at all and 8% were hung up on.

The budget has $51 million to govern immigration consultants. I'm just wondering how much business is driven to immigration consultants because IRCC isn't picking up the phone.

10:55 a.m.

Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual

David LeBlanc

Actually, I want to make a comment about something that's beyond statistics. One thing we have always heard from clients who did get hold of the call centre is, when they tell us what they were told, they were given patently wrong advice. That's a bigger issue than whether the calls get answered.

I would rather they didn't answer the call than give them wrong advice.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

That is something else.

10:55 a.m.

President, Inter-Connections Canada Inc., As an Individual

Alli Amlani

I can add numbers to that.

About 12 years ago when we did the last survey, approximately 27% of the people who applied with immigration were represented. A study done last year, after the CIMM 2017 report, says we have now 68% of people being represented by lawyers and consultants, authorized representatives. That tells us that the demand has increased. As David said, it's better not to give advice than to give the wrong advice, because those are the people that Ms. Kwan was talking about. They could be protected somehow, but not totally.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

Even as a member of Parliament who deals with casework all the time, as we all do, I don't get a live agent.

10:55 a.m.

President, Inter-Connections Canada Inc., As an Individual

Alli Amlani

If you do, you might get the wrong advice, so watch out. Nine out of 10 times, it's guaranteed.

10:55 a.m.

Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual

David LeBlanc

I'd like to make a follow-up comment.

What drives business to us is every time IRCC tries to simplify the process, simply the form, simplify the website and they say, “You don't need to hire representatives; it's all here and it's in plain English.”

That's like saying, “If you have appendicitis, go to the Library of Congress with a scalpel and pick up Gray's Anatomy and just do it yourself.” Nobody does that.

Every time they try to simplify, it drives business to us, because in a way, they've failed in their effort to make it simpler and people get more baffled and then call us. Therefore, I, for one, champion every time the department simplifies processes.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

Yesterday I asked the department if there was any analysis done in terms of the opportunity cost of putting $51 million towards another regulatory body for your profession, as opposed to looking at ways to simplify, because it seems to me that there are a lot of people who are accessing immigration consultants for basic things such as translation services, understanding where forms are located, and so on.

Do you have any comment on that? The answer that I received was somewhat diffuse, as one would expect.

What I'm trying to say in closing, in the minute that I have left, is perhaps are we missing something here? We're looking at regulating the profession, which is important, but isn't there also something more important in terms of the government actually trying to do what it's supposed to do, rather than driving business to you?

11 a.m.

Managing Director, Senior Immigration Consultant, Ferreira-Wells Immigrations Services Inc., As an Individual

David LeBlanc

Yes. In terms of how the department goes to market, you have to appreciate that with the increase in application fees, especially citizenship fees now being at $630, I can almost guarantee that if you pulled apart the numbers, you would discover that the department is a profit centre for the government.

How they re-resource that money is beyond my purview.

11 a.m.

President, Inter-Connections Canada Inc., As an Individual

Alli Amlani

I'd like to add that the $51 million—

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

We are out of time and I do have to police myself, which is difficult.

11 a.m.

President, Inter-Connections Canada Inc., As an Individual

Alli Amlani

No problem. It's just that the minister told us—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

We will suspend.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

All right. We will go on to the next panel of witnesses.

We will start with Mr. Dean, for seven minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Ryan Dean As an Individual

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me back to be a witness at CIMM.

As you know, I'd like to focus my discussion on division 15, the application for continuance in proposed subsection 84(1) and proposed paragraph 85(7)(g), with respect to ICCRC.

ICCRC has been run since its inception by a group of insiders drawn from the CAPIC lobbying group. They previously ran CSIC and are positioning themselves to attempt to run the new college via the application in continuance.

At the last CIMM meeting, in 2017, we heard that immigration consultants were afraid to report anything to ICCRC for fear of putting their Canadian status in jeopardy. I submit that the majority of immigration consultants, immigrants themselves, feel the same way about standing up to this regulator, putting their licences in jeopardy. There is fear in the membership. Voting rates corroborate this and have plummeted more than 50% in the last three years as members take cover.

Members have watched ICCRC insiders and the CAPIC lobbying group work together as one, with systematic undemocratic actions, abuse of powers and fundamental violations of the act.

For instance, the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act, in its subsection 128(8), and ICCRC's own articles of continuance state in part that “the total number of directors so appointed may not exceed one third of the number of directors elected at the previous annual meeting of members.” The membership votes on six directors each year. At most, two may be appointed without violating the act.

So how did ICCRC do? In 2016-17, ICCRC appointed nine. With those unlawful appointments, there was still no quorum for the entire year. In 2017-18, they appointed six directors, largely a double violation. In 2018-19, ICCRC has appointed three directors so far and incredibly held this out to the membership as one of them “winning” his election, despite the fact that he was not even on the ballot.

The underlying notion of these directors' appointments originally took root when the idea that the second-place finisher in an election should win was eagerly adopted by the board of directors. Of course, since all of their incumbent friends lost in the 2016 election and were in second place, it was obvious self-dealing.

There are laws that apply to Canadians but apparently not to the privileged ICCRC-CAPIC insiders. They arrogantly and unilaterally stripped the membership of their rights, violated the act at least 86 times and calculated that nobody adversely affected would take time to read the act.

ICCRC was asked numerous times by me and others but failed to call mandated special general meetings of members under the act pursuant to subsection 132(2). Instead, ICCRC culled its bylaws, and they were not even voted on at the board levels, so they continued to fill vacancies with their CAPIC friends, deliberately attempting to sidestep the act and remain in power.

Now ICCRC and the CAPIC insiders want the minister to approve its continuance while they're in default of the act and their own articles of continuance transitioning to the college. ICCRC and CAPIC will try to blame me for many of the shortcomings, but I was not a director for most of these appointments, as I was unlawfully removed by board trial in a breach of parliamentary privilege and against the act, sections 131 and 132, whereby only members who elected me can remove me. Nor was I there for the current quid pro quo hiring of the current ICCRC CEO, after he apparently helped quash formal CPA Ontario complaints, where he was then the registrar.

I believe the ICCRC financial statements fail to follow accounting standards at multiple places. The audited financial statements did not include members of the public on the audit committee, as required by the act in subsection 194(1).

Merv Hillier, CPA and former ICCRC director and the subject of my CPA Ontario complaint, signed and dated in writing a statement in which he said he was going to use all of his power and influence to sway the outcome of the CPA Ontario investigation, being past president of that organization.

The core competency of the ICCRC investigation team was already given to a small, third party, private corporation run out of a residence and not provided for in the ICCRC bylaws—it was indeed explicitly denied by Mr. Hillier at the 2016 AGM that it even existed—while the entire board and officers looked on in approving silence. This is essentially the same management that will be running the college.

ICCRC's registrar, Mr. Barker, was running interference by answering questions for two other ICCRC officers in a discipline complaint investigation, and he provided evidence to an investigator, Mr. Atkins, that was taken without question. Yet when the owner of the third party investigation firm, Ms. Kewley, was asked about one of the four investigators working out of her home for years, she stated that she did know who Mr. Atkins was. Are investigators who may not exist a problem?

Every discipline or appeals decision made at ICCRC is invalid under section 158 of the act, because the committee making the decisions did include a member of the public, and asking to adjudicate it in Federal Court.

The last time we were at CIMM, we were here trying to figure out why immigration consultants who acted badly were not being disciplined. ICCRC blamed those consultants as the real problem and pointed at the statute as the solution, and yet certain board members were helping to train as many ghost consultants as they could for a fee. To keep their discussions out of the public view and plot these things, ICCRC insiders make extensive use of the CAPIC chat room.

Shortly before the media announced the call, I had just filed an application with the court to dissolve ICCRC and CAPIC for their abuse of powers and for activities that fundamentally changed the members' rights. Ironically, all of these unlawful appointments, this forgoing of proper notice and this skipping of special general meetings are grounds under the act to have ICCRC and CAPIC dissolved.

It is a big deal. If I'm successful in my application, it may mean that the college will get shut down, and ICCRC will be allowed to transition to it under paragraph 85(7)(g). That's not my intention at all. To be clear, the college is a terrific idea, but having any ICCRC or CAPIC director and/or officer running the college would create corruption, deceit and abuse of powers. There's no upside to transitioning the council.

Why risk the college at all? We should make a clean break now. Besides, ICCRC already skipped 19 special general meetings with members. With all of these unlawful appointments and my removal, why do they deserve one now? I believe that they will surely try to manipulate the process. Moreover, I sent a letter to the ICCRC board officers about a month ago about all of this, and not one of them was moved.

Being a self-regulating organization is nearly the same as being a monopoly, except for the fact that self-regulation includes the power of law. Awarding ICCRC and CAPIC with further powers is downright dangerous to Canadians and Canada, in my opinion. Those who abuse a little will abuse much. How much would it embolden ICCRC and CAPIC to do even more unlawful things if they are rewarded after these revelations?

If a new broom sweeps clean, this same group of individuals and their friends will finally be able to tap into the unlimited resources—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel

You have about 30 seconds, Mr. Dean.

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Ryan Dean

—of competent immigration consultants already in the membership, and staff the college board, officer and employee positions with competent, honest and intelligent immigration consultants.

Thank you.