Evidence of meeting #157 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes. I understand very well the concern of you and Ms. Kwan about the vulnerability of people. But in real life, we must also see that sometimes the client is the accomplice. It's the person who, because they see that the rules are against them, try to go around the rules. When they're caught, then they will point to the consultant and say, it's the consultant who told me to lie or to invent something. It's very difficult.
We see cases like that, he-said-she-said. Sometimes the consultant is the victim of a client who didn't disclose the real story and then when he's caught by the authority will use the consultant as a scapegoat. Then it goes to credibility in terms of who to believe.
I want to tell you that the authority and the consultant must develop skills to be able to identify when he has a truthful client. It's mainly I think the responsibility of the state to decide when someone has been so exploited. The minister has this authority and he uses it from to time to time to allow the person to be accepted even if he doesn't really fit all the rules because of his situation. It's called the H and C, the humanitarian and compassionate factor, and it can be used.
A good consultant and a good lawyer can make a good case that this person has been the victim of either a bad consultant or sometimes also a bad lawyer and that for compassionate reasons he should still be granted his status.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the witnesses for being here today.
Again, our number one priority in this committee is to ensure that for individuals who are sponsoring their family members overseas, there's not misleading information and no one is being taken advantage of and that the processes are followed thoroughly.
I want to ask the panel about something. We recommended in this committee to combat misleading information. We mentioned that we wanted to develop education campaigns in foreign markets, have local and ethnic media to educate clients on registered immigration consultants and on the dangers from those who are not registered.
The government heard from us, and they looked at this recommendation and they've agreed with this recommendation.
Is this, first of all, a good step and how is this different from maybe 20 years ago when you mentioned overseas?
I believe, Mr. Gagnon, you mentioned that most of the abuses are happening abroad. If you can comment on those, I'll start with Mr. Gagnon.
9:35 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, of course. I remember well the forms we used to make a first application when I was an immigration officer. We called it QPI, questionnaire préliminaire d'immigration. Some people would photocopy it and sell it in some village for $50, when it was a free form. That's a simple example. You would be surprised at how people will invent ways of separating people from their money. I remember people waiting on the sidewalk near the office and proposing that people give them money so it would be faster, which was totally false. There are always some little, big and very big sharks trying to bite people.
The best remedy for that is information, information, information, but that costs time and money. At least it's now in the commercial interest of consultants to help the authorities fight those things. Now they will be able to do that for other professions, such as trying to practise illegal medicine in Canada. The medical association will come on to them very strongly for ethical and economic reasons.
If we look at it in a realistic way, of course, a registered, well-qualified consultant will try to help, because it's in the authorities' interest to fight this but it will be a never-ending fight, that's for sure.
9:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
As I mentioned in my speech, being anchored in the federal law gives an extraterritorial power, and I believe in the upcoming two to three years, the college should be getting exemplary cases where they can, and they would, I assume, stop and bring to justice some of what we used to name “out of jurisdiction”. Now with the extraterritorial power, I believe for any Canadian living overseas, any person related to a Canadian individual and/or company and any other non-Canadians willing to come to Canada with a visa or whatever, that power given by Parliament can be used through the courts. I would wish to see some exemplary cases that would put the bar high and make others believe that if they do this, they're going to get a very severe verdict.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Okay, so what I'm hearing is to combat misleading information we have to invest time and money to ensure these officers are getting on the ground and mentioning to potential clients that this is the proper route, the proper information here. We're using information in their native language so we can combat these people who are trying to take advantage of these clients.
Before, a lot of clients feared mentioning if there was a complaint, if they didn't like the consultant they were using. They feared not being able to bring their families over, as their application would be refused if they came forward with a complaint. Now we have recommended putting a process in place whereby those who feel they've been misled or taken advantage of can come forward with a complaint and that won't jeopardize their process. Do you think this is a good step?
9:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
It is.
Mr. Damitz, would you like to answer that?
9:40 a.m.
Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Yes. We have to divide this. One part is making the complaint to the regulator, and that's not different from before except now you can make the complaints against unauthorized practitioners and somebody can look after it. Then the second thing, which is on the government side as my colleague said before, is the fear that there are consequences to complaining about the application. The regulator has nothing to do with the application. That's IRCC. If there is some thought about a kind of whistle-blower policy or something, if somebody is not punished when coming forward, I believe that would be a good thing.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel
Mr. Maguire, we'll move on to our second round. You have five minutes.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to our witnesses today, as well.
Mr. Jade, and Mr. Damitz, how many clients would your association have now?
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
You probably wanted to say members, because we do not represent clients. We are the advocacy body.
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
We have 2,500 members.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
How many other people now access the services of your members because they can't get hold of a live agent on the IRCC call centre helpline?
9:45 a.m.
Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Well, this is a problem. I would say quite a few. Even for us, it's difficult to get hold of someone. Sometimes, we have to ask for the status of a case. In my opinion, there should be some thought put into how to improve this, more money and more trained staff. It's sometimes a little frustrating.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
What percentage of people call your members because they can't get hold of a live agent at IRCC?
9:45 a.m.
Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Well, we would have to circulate a questionnaire and ask people that question.
It happens all the time. I don't want to say it's just coincidence, but they call potential practitioners, which includes lawyers. They just want information. It's not that easy to find it.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
My office isn't one of your members, but I certainly end up dealing with an awful lot of the calls. I think it's a situation that needs to be addressed. I'm wondering why you're so adamant that the present.... Don't get me wrong, I believe we need the new college, but I find it a little hard to believe that you want to see so much power in the minister's office. This is just an arm of the government—an arm of the minister's office, particularly.
9:45 a.m.
Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
For 20 years, many of us have been lobbying for self-regulation. Two of us, with other colleagues, were lobbying over the last three or four years for a federal statute for self-regulation, because we believe it's an opportunity to significantly raise the standards for consumer protection in the industry. This is a solution, something I think we call the best of two worlds. As I talk to your colleagues—
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Okay, if I could just interrupt, because of time here. Self-regulation is obviously something you were looking for—
9:45 a.m.
Member, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
We have self-regulatory elements.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
You're not self-regulated. The minister's office is doing this.
