Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2019

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There is nothing in budget 2019 that we presented that specifically speaks to that. We don't anticipate that we would require extraordinary resources to deal with such a challenge.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'll pass it over to Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

One of the things that I took upon myself last year was to put a letter to the Parliamentary Budget Officer on what all of the illegal border crossers who have had come into Canada over that period of time will cost. The government had budgeted a couple of hundred million dollars for it all. It came back last November. They told us it was $1.1 billion. Now I see that you've come up with $1.18 billion for recommendation 2.28 over five years to try to handle some of this processing of 40,000 asylum claims. There's a backlog of 71,000.

Do you see this coming anywhere close to the cost required to be able to manage this, considering that this doesn't include any of an equal amount the provinces have indicated they are going to need to pay as well?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We believe the budget we have submitted is the appropriate budget to adequately resource IRCC, IRB, CBSA, the RCMP and other federal agencies that have a responsibility for this.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Do you believe that's going to do it when there is already a backlog of 71,000? You are going to do 50,000, and you have claims you're hoping, from what I understand in the report released today.... There is a hope that that will allow them to catch up, because if there are fewer coming in this year, it will allow officials to catch up on some of the heavy, and very public, backlog.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To manage this properly, Mr. Maguire, we're doing two things. We're making a significant effort to decrease the number of people who are crossing irregularly, and we've achieved, as I've already indicated to this committee, a significant level of success in that regard. We are also significantly increasing the capacity of our agencies and departments, the IRB in particular—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Blair, it's a little late. As my colleague said a little earlier, it's just a few months until an election. Why didn't you start two and a half years ago when this first became a problem?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We did.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

No, you didn't.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

You may not recall, but in budget 2018 we added $74 million, for example, to significantly increase the capacity of the IRB to conduct hearings. That was, as I recall, discussed at this committee. I'm not sure whether or not you recall that—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's my point, Mr. Blair. The $74 million is a drop in the bucket compared with what is required by the provinces, and even your federal departments, to be able to manage the backlog from the last few years. In two years there were about 40,000 illegal crossers.

[The Acting Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

There won't be time for an answer to that question, but maybe Madam Zahid will ask a similar type of thing.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thanks, Minister, for coming today. I have many immigrants in my riding of Scarborough Centre and you also have many immigrants in neighbouring ridings. Like all Canadians, they believe in the importance of a fair immigration system for everyone. I know Canada is a welcoming country with strong support overall for immigration. Crucial to maintaining that public support is the perception that the system is fair to everyone.

Can you please assure us that these changes being brought in through division 16 will protect the integrity of our immigration system, and at the same time also meeting Canada's international obligations and ensuring that we are a place that welcomes those in genuine need of our protection?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Ms. Zahid, I think your question is important.

I think that maintaining public Canadians' confidence in their refugee protection system is critical. We have worked very hard to make sure that it's adequately resourced to deal with the volumes that Canada and other countries in the world are currently experiencing. We saw a fairly significant increase in the number of people seeking asylum. We also heard from many Canadians concerned about whether those who were crossing the border irregularly were being treated in the same way as those who chose to seek asylum here at a regular point of entry.

We've examined all of the rules and worked very hard to make sure that we strike that balance and maintain fairness in the system. We have also ensured that there will be no particular advantage for an individual who might choose to cross irregularly, while also acknowledging that, for people who are fleeing war and persecution and who fear for their lives and the safety of their children, we are always going to be a country that is welcoming and receptive and offering protection to those individuals.

We understand as well that fairness in the system requires timely determination of whether or not a person is eligible for the protection of Canada, so we know that we needed to make significant new investments in IRB's capacity to do that. At the same time, we will have to make sure that those systems are also conducted with efficiency because some of those individuals are determined not to be eligible. They have to be subject to a timely removal and that's done in a careful and compassionate way, but it's important that the system also reach a finality to assure Canadians of its fairness. I think we've achieved the right balance of success.

As I've already indicated, I've had extensive conversations with UNHCR and Amnesty International and others who want to ensure that Canada maintains a compassionate, welcoming approach for those who are truly in need of protection and that we uphold our legal obligations. I believe very sincerely that the measures we propose in budget 2019, in the bill before this committee, have achieved that balance and that we are implementing measures that are thoughtful, reasonable, lawful and appropriate for the circumstances.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You mentioned in your opening remarks that there are 24 million refugees globally and that 258 million migrants are on the move. The refugees are either fleeing war zones or they have had to leave their countries because of natural disasters. Do you think that the number of irregular border crossers we saw come to Canada was because of a simple tweet?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Frankly, I believe that's an absurdity. One only has to read a newspaper to see what's going on in the world and to see how other countries that are like Canada in being welcoming, compassionate and safe places, where people from all over the world have sought refuge....

There are real conflicts and real risks in many parts of the world. Canada has a long and very proud history of being a place of welcome to those who are truly in need of our protection. We also reflect on the contributions made to building a great, strong and resilient Canada by those who have come here seeking our protection.

I think it's a source of great pride for all of us, but to suggest that 250 million people all of a sudden were on the move because of a tweet is silly, and to suggest that the global phenomenon of nearly 25 million true refugees is influenced.... Just to put it in context, of that 25 million people whom the United Nations Refugee Agency identifies as true refugees, fewer than 0.16% of them have sought refuge in Canada.

[The Acting Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

We have a final three-minute round of questions from Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I just want to talk numbers for a minute.

You have a backlog of 71,000 cases. The IRB told us they expect about 60,000 cases this year and 60,000 new claims next year. The budget provides for the funding of 40,700 this year and 50,000 next year. Simple math tells us that you're actually going to run into “legacy 2.0.” The leftover problem the Conservatives handed to you with “legacy 1.0” will now actually become “legacy 2.0,” even with your additional funding. How will this really solve the problem?

On the issue of creating the pre-removal risk assessment stream and shovelling 3,500 cases through it, aren't you actually diverting the work from the IRB to IRCC to do exactly the same thing?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No. To your second question, I would respectfully submit that no, it's not. The processes through the IRB—all of the subsequent reviews and appeals and the judicial review—take a fairly significant amount of time. The pre-removal risk assessment, notwithstanding a hearing with legal counsel and subject to judicial review, I believe can be done in a far more timely way. I also believe that individuals who realize they won't have access to the full determination of a second asylum claim if they've already made a claim in another country would be encouraged and incentivized to remain in the existing country, which will help us reduce the numbers.

I agree, it takes time. We've had many discussions with IRB. It takes time to build up their capacity to address the numbers currently in the queue, but they are making real progress. Increasing their capacity is part of our strategy, and so is reducing the number of claims. We aim to make sure that people have a clear understanding of our immigration systems and the laws that pertain to asylum claims in this country, and to make sure.... We have discovered that by being proactive, by going out and communicating more effectively and by working with our international partners, we've been able to achieve a very significant reduction in the number of people presenting themselves.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you for that. Based on the IRB's own projection with respect to the number of cases they anticipate for this year and next year, however, if you run through all of these numbers, you will still have a backlog of over 80,000 cases. You're not really solving the problem. Those 80,000 cases, even from the Auditor General's report—and he was only projecting a 50,000 caseload increase each year, and his office is now projecting a five-year process in which people are going to be stuck in limbo—is not much better, frankly. In fact, it's pretty well the same as what the Conservatives had handed over to you. What this government is now going to do, on the eve of an election, is hand it over to whomever assumes office after this.

[The Acting Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

Ms. Kwan, can you be very quick with your question? Your three minutes is up, but if the minister is prepared to stay and answer it, he can.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'll ask a very quick question. I asked the minister if I could have a private sit-down with him to go through this legislation and get the questions answered without being limited by time. I was not granted that request. I wonder whether or not I can make that request now of the minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Of course. I'm not sure what the difficulty was in scheduling some time, but you and I have had an opportunity to speak previously on other matters. If we can find a mutually convenient time, I'd be happy to meet with you.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Tell me when and I'll be there.

[The Acting Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll recess for one minute while we clear the table. My understanding is that your officials are staying for the next hour.

Thank you.