Evidence of meeting #158 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul MacKinnon  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
John Ossowski  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Lori MacDonald  Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Louis Dumas  Director General, Transformation Office, Transformation, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
André Baril  Senior Director, Refugee Affairs, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Jennifer Lutfallah  Director General, Enforcement and Intelligence Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Nafiya Naso  Spokesperson, Canadian Yazidi Association
Jean-Nicolas Beuze  Representative in Canada, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Justin Mohammed  Human Rights Law and Policy Campaigner, Amnesty International Canada
Marilynn Rubayika  Public Interest Articling Fellow, Amnesty International Canada
Lobat Sadrehashemi  President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

6:35 p.m.

Justin Mohammed Human Rights Law and Policy Campaigner, Amnesty International Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we are on the unceded territory of the Algonquin people. That is a particular salient message to bring in this committee because aside from our first peoples, of course, when we're discussing issues of immigration and refugee matters we all have a story that's rooted in migration.

Our remarks today will focus exclusively on clause 306 of the bill, which adds a ground of ineligibility for claims of refugee protection made to the refugee protection division of the IRB. I'd like to register our objection to the fact that the changes being proposed to Canada's refugee protection regime are in an omnibus bill. We salute this committee's decision nevertheless to examine this issue, but we're dismayed that we were not consulted prior to the tabling of this bill.

Over the course of my presentation, I would like to make three points. First, Amnesty International considers that Bill C-97is inconsistent with Canada's commitments under international law. Second, the bill will have the negative impact on Canadian refugee practice by creating a two-tier system of refugee protection. Finally, Canada must not rely on foreign protection regimes to uphold its international obligations.

With respect to the inconsistency in international law, Amnesty International is of the view that clause 306 of Bill C-97 is inconsistent with international refugee law because it constitutes an automatic barrier to the referral of a claim to Canada's refugee status determination system, the refugee protection division.

It operates without regard to when the prior claim was made; the status of the claim in the other country, whether it be finalized, accepted, rejected, withdrawn, etc.; the fairness of the refugee status determination process in the other country or whether there are other possible bona fide reasons for which a person may seek Canada's protection after having done so elsewhere. We consider that automatic bars to consideration of the asylum claims are not in conformity with the refugee convention.

The convention furthermore prohibits discrimination amongst refugees on the basis of race, religion or country of origin. While the measure in Bill C-97 does not discriminate on the basis of these grounds, it is arbitrary and discriminates on the basis of a claim having been filed in another country if that country happens to be Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom or the United States or any other country with which Canada signs an agreement.

We view this to be an analogous ground of discrimination to those covered in the refugee convention and thus a violation of the spirit if not the letter of that convention.

Second, there's the two-tier system. Amnesty International further opposes the measure Bill C-97 because it introduces a two-tier system of refugee protection. While some refugee protection claimants will have access to the robust status determination system in the Immigration and Refugee Board, others will only have access to the PRRA.

The UNHCR has previously expressed concerns about this:

Where access to the refugee determination procedure is denied, and claims referred to the PRRA for determination, there is the risk of creating a two-tier system, in which the protection risks of one class of asylum-seekers are assessed by the Immigration and Refugee Board, while those of another are assessed by CIC officials. This could affect both the efficiency of the system and consistency of decision-making.

The UNHCR handbook, reissued as recently as February 2019, says the same:

There should be a clearly identified authority—wherever possible a single central authority—with responsibility for examining requests for refugee status and taking a decision in the first instance.

Amnesty International supports that view, because the two-tier model results in important differences. I will cover them now.

The first is independence. While the IRB is an independent, quasi-judicial tribunal, a PRRA officer is an employee of the IRCC. This new system would undermine the long-standing policy in Canada that claims for refugee protection are heard by an independent decision-maker.

Second is oral hearings. This is discretionary under the PRRA. However, even if an oral interview is afforded, it does not offer the same protections as an IRB hearing. The refugee claimant has no ability to call witnesses or to test the evidence upon which an officer is relying.

Third is appeals. Decisions of the RPD are appealed to the refugee appeal division, whereas appeals of the PRRA go to the Federal Court for judicial review. Both have different standards of review and, more importantly, while an appeal to the refugee appeal division results in an automatic stay of removal an application for judicial review does not.

Finally, Amnesty International is concerned that Bill C-97unduly relies on foreign refugee status determination systems where human rights abuses of refugee protection claimants are well documented. The U.S. provides an illustrative example.

In our 2018 report entitled “You Don’t Have Any Rights Here”, Amnesty International documented three categories of human rights violations that are being committed by the United States: illegal push-backs along the U.S.-Mexico border, family and child separations, and arbitrary and indefinite detention.

Since that report, there has been a slew of administration policies that fail to respect the rights of refugees. One will deny bond to persons seeking refugee protection until their claims are finalized, which we know can take years. Another would establish a general rule that disqualifies victims of gang violence and domestic abuse from refugee protection. Only last week, the Trump administration circulated a memorandum that intends to further dismantle the system of protection by having U.S. border guards, rather than asylum officers, consider those claims.

I'd now like to turn the floor over to my colleague, Marilynn, to provide a real-life example of the type of claim that will be affected if Bill C-97 becomes law.

May 7th, 2019 / 6:45 p.m.

Marilynn Rubayika Public Interest Articling Fellow, Amnesty International Canada

I'm going to speak French.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I'd like to tell you the story of an individual who, thanks to the current system, was granted the protection they had claimed and to which they were entitled as a refugee.

In 2006, this individual left their country of origin, Saudi Arabia, to pursue post-secondary education in the United States. Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the individual's father, a public personality recognized by Amnesty International as a prisoner of conscience, was arrested and imprisoned twice. He was accused of criticizing discriminatory laws and policies and calling for their reform.

The individual began a social media campaign on Facebook calling for freedom of religion and freedom of expression and, ultimately, their father's release. A family member who was also involved in the campaign was arrested shortly thereafter and forced to make an incriminating confession.

On that basis, the individual decided to seek asylum in the U.S. for themselves and their family. Their claim was denied despite the fact that Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International had publicly criticized the arrests of their family members.

Fearing deportation with their family members to Saudi Arabia, where they would have faced near-certain persecution, the individual decided to cross the border to Canada irregularly. After examining the individual's claim, the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada determined that the individual should receive protection here, in Canada, or they would be at risk of persecution in their country of origin. The claim for refugee protection that had been rejected by an official in the U.S. was granted by the independent board.

Amnesty International therefore encourages the committee to consider the procedural challenges this individual would've faced had they not had the opportunity to demonstrate their eligibility before an independent board.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Acting Chair Liberal Nick Whalen

I have to ask you to wrap it up.

6:45 p.m.

Public Interest Articling Fellow, Amnesty International Canada

Marilynn Rubayika

Thank you. I need just 10 seconds more.

The individual's claim was denied in the U.S. for reasons that are not clear.

Refugees have the right to be heard by an independent board, and it is up to Canada to make sure it respects its international obligations.

Thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Acting Chair Liberal Nick Whalen

Thank you.

Ms. Sadrehashemi, for the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers, please.

6:45 p.m.

Lobat Sadrehashemi President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Thank you for inviting me to speak.

Some people have said that there is no point in spending our effort opposing these amendments. They say that these amendments are in a budget bill, so inevitably they will be passed into law.

I am here tonight on behalf of the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers because these amendments are unfair, and they're ultimately bad for our refugee determination system. I want us to be in this room together as people who the community has entrusted to make laws that are fair and/or to speak out against ones that are not. I want you to think about whether you feel comfortable creating laws in this way—rushed through a budget bill—laws that directly affect the rights of some of the most vulnerable people in our community.

I'm going to spend my time on clause 306, the amendment that creates a new class of ineligibility. You have heard today from Minister Blair, officials and the Canadian representative for UNHCR. You've heard assurances that the changes in clause 306 are not significant, that they won't have a profound impact. Most of their faith seems to stem from promises that are nowhere to be found in the legislation. I don't understand their position. The creation of a new ground of ineligibility is a significant change to our refugee determination system that affects a broad category of people and takes away many important protections from these claimants.

This amendment does not only affect claimants who cross the border irregularly. It affects all claimants, no matter how they've travelled here, if they've ever made a claim in one of these countries that Canada happens to have an information-sharing agreement with. It's not limited only to claimants who are rejected by another country. They only have to have made a claim. It's not even limited to claims they made when they were adults. Even if they were children on their parents' claims in one of these countries, they are barred from a hearing before the Immigration and Refugee Board.

What do these claimants in this broad new category lose? They lose a lot. It's not about tinkering and a few procedural differences. These claimants are losing fundamental rights. They lose the full hearing before an independent tribunal. They lose access to an appeal on the merits. They can't go to the refugee appeal division. They have no protection from removal if they are reviewing a decision to the Federal Court. There's no automatic stay of removal. Now today you've heard Minister Blair and others say that there's no need to worry because these claimants will still be offered protection through PRRAs.

I would first like to deal with what is before us: the IRPA and the amendments in this budget bill. Then we can deal with the assurances that are nowhere in the law, the so-called enhanced PRRA that you heard about today. The PRRA is not the same as a hearing before the Immigration and Refugee Board. Any refugee lawyer will tell you that. The PRRA is a written process. You fill in forms. You provide arguments in writing to an employee at IRCC. The IRPA specifically provides that officers are not required to hold an interview, and indeed, they don't. It's extremely rare for them to hold an interview. Even in those rare circumstances, it's not a hearing, as Justin from Amnesty has already set out for you.

We heard assurances today from Minister Blair that there would be an enhanced PRRA. I listened carefully to the testimony, and I am lost. We were told that no one would be deported without an oral hearing. When asked whether by hearing he meant interview, we were told that, no, it will be a hearing with an official, not an interview. As far as I understand, the government doesn't have the power to establish a hearing process outside of the act.

It's also clear that the department has not thought out how this would operationally work if the department was now going to hold thousands of hearings. First, PRRA officers aren't trained to do this. An official today said that PRRA officer training to make refugee determinations is the same as that for members of the Immigration and Refugee Board. I found that answer astounding. It's not true. The PRRA was never meant to be a substitute for the RPD. It's a written process that's done after someone has already had a hearing before the Refugee Protection Division. The officers are not trained to do this work. They don't do full credibility assessments. They barely ever hold interviews. They haven't had training on how to appropriately examine a woman who has experienced violence. There are no guidelines on it. They don't have the tools.

Second, they don't have the infrastructure to do it. Are they going to create a registry and schedule hearings, interpretation and the disclosure of documents? Where are the hearing rooms? None of this has been thought through.

It's very easy to give assurances and not put them in law, and not even think them through as to how they would play out operationally.

Why wasn't this part of the BIA? If this is such a key protection and it's so fundamental, you should ask why it isn't in this legislation. All of this points to the need to separate this provision out of the budget bill and study it properly along with these promised protections. The government's assurances also beg this question: If you're going to give everyone a hearing, why create a parallel process? What is the logic in this? It will just create more backlogs and more delays.

There hasn't been a thorough review of the implications of these provisions, including the gender implications. These provisions disproportionately impact women. For example, the United States does not recognize asylum claims based on domestic violence even where the home state doesn't offer women protection from that violence. Canada has long recognized that domestic violence is a basis on which women may seek Canada's protection, yet with these amendments, we would punish a woman who was rejected in the United States or who abandoned her claim in the United States knowing that it would be dismissed. We would punish these women and their children with an inferior process and tell them they're not deserving of a full, independent hearing before the Immigration and Refugee Board.

I don't know how I would explain to a client, who after living through years of domestic violence managed to escape and make her way from Honduras to the United States, where she was detained and correctly advised that the United States would not recognize her claim, why, after all that, after making it to Canada, she doesn't have an opportunity to present her case to the Immigration and Refugee Board, she is relegated to a lesser process with a government official, and she has no opportunity for an appeal on the merits. Do I tell her our government believes she's asylum shopping? This is not about women shopping for better immigration deals. This is about seeking protection and safety. There's no justification at all for punishing these claimants. Offering claimants an inferior process is a punishment.

There are so many things wrong with these proposed amendments. It will not achieve any legitimate government objective. CARL urges the committee to reject the amendment.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Acting Chair Liberal Nick Whalen

Thank you.

We'll begin with Mrs. Zahid.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thanks to all the witnesses for coming today and for providing your testimony.

Clause 306 of Bill C-97 would render an individual ineligible to make a refugee claim in Canada if he or she had already made a refugee claim in another country with which Canada has a data-sharing agreement, specifically Australia, New Zealand, the U.S.A. and the U.K. Individuals in this situation would be permitted to apply for a pre-removal risk assessment. Could I ask both of you to tell us your recommendations with regard to making sure that the PRRA hearing is strengthened and everyone gets a fair chance in the PRRA hearing? Do you have any recommendations to make sure that we can strengthen this?

I'll start with you, Mr. Mohammed.

6:55 p.m.

Human Rights Law and Policy Campaigner, Amnesty International Canada

Justin Mohammed

Amnesty International's recommendation is that the hearing that's provided for refugee protection claimants be the same regardless of the fact of a prior claim. All of the protections that exist in the IRB, after all, exist for a reason. I think if we use logic, we can understand that the protection regime that's found in the IRB is there because it's meant to protect the rights of refugees.

As to hiving off a separate process and putting it in the PRRA, I fail to understand where the additional achievement is if we recognize that those are the protections that refugee protection claimants should have in Canada. We recommend that in fact the same protections that are available to a person under the IRB should be available to any person who is claiming refugee protection in Canada.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Ms. Sadrehashemi, would you like to comment?

6:55 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

I agree with the comments by Amnesty International. I would just add that I think it is problematic that we're talking at this stage about recommendations for protections. If these amendments do not provide for a fair process—and that's what's before you—then we shouldn't pass it.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

No, but everyone would be getting an opportunity. No one would be removed. Everyone would be given the opportunity under Bill C-97, in division 16, to have the PRRA hearing. My question was that—

6:55 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's not true.

I understand that there have been communications, and I've seen those communications from Minister Blair's office to MPs, telling them that everyone will have a robust hearing and an appeal, but I'm sorry, that is just not true. That is not what is in the amendments.

When he says “an enhanced pre-removal risk assessment”, what he's talking about is an assurance that they'll provide it. That's not what's before you. That's not there.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

If they are not eligible to make the claim, they will get a PRRA hearing.

6:55 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

No, they won't. They'll get a PRRA process. They will have access to a PRRA, and under IRPA, PRRA is generally a written process. IRPA is clear that officers do not have to hold, not a hearing, but do not even have to hold an interview. Therefore, everything you're hearing about this enhanced PRRA is not in IRPA; that's not in the budget amendments. That's not there.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

We heard from Minister Blair and he specifically mentioned that there will be an interview, so it is wrong to say that there will not be an interview. He came here at 3:30 today and he said very specifically in his testimony that everyone will have the opportunity for a PRRA hearing.

6:55 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

Yes, I heard him and he did say that everyone would have an opportunity for a hearing, but if you look at the language in IRPA and at the amendments in the budget bill, there is nothing there. There's nothing about the PRRA in the amendments, so the PRRA remains as it is in IRPA.

There are no amendments to the PRRA in the budget bill, so that is a misconception. It's very unfortunate, because this is such a serious thing that's going to affect people, and it's wrong that you've been provided with these assurances that are actually not in the law.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

I'd like to share my time with Mr. DeCourcey.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Ms. Sadrehashemi, if these provisions are given a guarantee through regulation, would that satisfy? Is there a way this could be strengthened to ensure that the enhanced PRRA guarantees an in-person hearing for those who would be part of this cohort who wouldn't be given access to the IRB because they already have a claim in another safe third country?

Is there any recommendation you can make to us that if the new pre-removal risk assessment goes ahead, we could add safeguards in to ensure an in-person hearing?

7 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

I would first say that, as you're aware, regulations are easily changed, so I have a problem if this is how we say that this process is going to be fair. These are key protections.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

To be fair, regulations can also be strengthened much more easily than other methods, as well.

7 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

Well, I just don't understand. If this is a key protection, why wouldn't you put it in within the amendments in the budget?

We haven't seen it. I have not seen any draft regulation. As well, it's very clear that regulations are more easily amended and taken away by subsequent governments, and I wouldn't feel comfortable or satisfied with assurances that are in a regulation.

Here, we don't even have them in a regulation. They're nowhere.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

You mentioned the potential gender impact. Do you have any evidence to suggest that it would be women and girls who would be adversely affected by this, specifically given that the international UN agency still considers the U.S. to be a safe third country and that they have a mature and robust asylum system to adjudicate claims properly?

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Acting Chair Liberal Nick Whalen

Very quickly, please.

7 p.m.

President and Laywer, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers

Lobat Sadrehashemi

I know there is a witness tomorrow who will be speaking to you about the U.S. asylum system, and specifically gender claims, but it is very clear that the United States does not treat claims based on domestic violence the same as Canada does. There's a decision, the Matter of A-B-, the decision of Jeff Sessions.

I don't think that's a controversial position, so all we are saying is that there are very legitimate reasons that women would either abandon their claims in the United States or their claims would be rejected when their claims are based on domestic violence. I don't see why those women should be punished for that.