Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 8th, 2016

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much to all the witnesses.

I would like to ask Mr. Vaval to finish that last thought. When you say “to regularize them”, can you expand on that? Do you mean to say that for the moratorium...? Actually, I'm going to let you tell us how that should be regularized.

[Pierreson Vaval]

Their situation needs to be regularized so that they can be full Canadian citizens, so that they can continue to build without fear of rejection.

When these people are sent back, it's society that rejects them. To a certain extent, when that happens, it is also like a rejection for us, Haitian nationals who are Canadian, as if we are accepted, but only to a certain extent.

These aren't people with criminal records, but people who contribute to society, who are engaged, who have been involved since they arrived and who the community supported. Their story is public and everyone knows it. So why not make this gesture? What is the barrier? Let's do it so that these 4,000 people can make ends meet. It's long overdue. These people are ready to work and help us build Canada.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for Mr. Cima.

Mr. Cima, thank you for your testimony. You mentioned the process in which you relied upon your representative to submit papers. There appear to have been administrative errors, among other things. In one minute, could you let the committee know how difficult it is to get the application forms filled? When there are administrative errors made, do you have an opportunity for those errors to be brought before you so that you can correct them, as opposed to waiting until the end of the process for the application to be rejected? Then you're nowhere, right?

How difficult is it to fill out those forms, and how difficult was it for you to access help with respect to filling out those forms?

[Jean-Fritz Cima]

From the beginning, I asked someone else to tell me what I had to do to fill out the form. I was always told that it was better to find a representative, a lawyer, so that it would be more compliant. So I always tried to meet with a lawyer so that he could help me.

However, it would probably have been better if I had written my story and completed my form. That is what I think because the representative did not know my background. I think the problem is that the representative thought my case was the same as the others. That explains why I encountered this difficulty. I think my problem is similar to that of others, but it is still different.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

For the other two witnesses, I'm interested in this question. As you know, the government brought forward a new directive whereby, within six months, people can make an application to get their permanent resident status. A number of people have not made an application for one reason or another. Do you have any suggestions as to how we could reach out to them?

It could be that those individuals are not even aware of the process. It could be that they're afraid to come forward for the fears that you had mentioned. How can we ensure that they come forward to make an application? Do you think that there's another way to deal with it as opposed to going through the special order of the six-month period to make an application?

[Marie-Jocelyne Simon]

First, the Haitian community needs to rally and find people who, sometimes for fear of being sent back, do not fill out the form. Certainly, a lot of them were afraid when the previous government was in power. They said that if they showed up, they would be sent back home.

Those of us in the community working with them, we can form a coalition, tell other organizations that the government is willing to work with us. So we need to find these people and tell them that we are ready to support them and help them to fill out the forms. As you said earlier, Ms. Kwan, a federal public servant could then make sure that at least the form has been completed properly before it is sent. There are several steps to follow. These people need to be reassured.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

You mentioned that people are afraid to be sent home. Is part of the fear—for example, working without status, the issues around the permit application process and so on—that somehow, if they make contact with the government to apply for permanent residence, the Canada Border Services Agency will be alerted and then they will be deported? Is that the fear?

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Ms. Simon, you have 30 seconds to answer.

[Marie-Jocelyne Simon]

The relationship these people had with the governments of their countries means they are afraid. They think that it will be the same here. They do not know that here they can speak with government representatives when they go to them. And some people may have gone to them and been sent back. That is why they're afraid.

These people will feel safe with us. We have to reassure them and tell them that we are working with the provincial government. The Government of Quebec will participate. The City of Montreal has set up a program to welcome them.

So all these people need to work together to reassure these individuals, to help them fill out the forms and, as soon as possible, allow them to stay in Canada and live with dignity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Ms. Simon.

Mr. Sarai, you have seven minutes.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

As you've noticed, the special measures program is probably one of the most generous and compassionate programs the government has been able to offer almost any group or any community; that is, it's a window of opportunity where anyone who is without status from Haiti and Zimbabwe can apply to this. There's not much more, I think, a government can do with respect to that.

What I'm hearing from you is that it's a messaging problem. People are not reaching out. I know this was elaborated on earlier in some of the questions, including Ms. Kwan's, but what is the best way the community can reach out more? As well, what is the best way for the government to help facilitate that?

That's for either Ms. Simon or Mr. Vaval.

[Pierreson Vaval]

As my colleague said, there has been a breach in the trust between the government and the community because of negative experiences. The people have experienced difficulties at every step they have taken. What Mr. Cima went through is an example, a typical case. There are a number of typical cases.

Trust is a key element in reconciling with the community and these people who are in a vulnerable situation, in rebuilding the bridge. The government's rhetoric needs to change. We need a discourse that favours the emergence of this trust. We need to stress that we don't want to send them back. We need to say that these are not tactics for sending people back.

The requirements need to be adapted to the reality of the information and other things that can be obtained to regularize the status of individuals. As we were saying earlier, the situation in Haiti is not a deception; it happened in front of the entire world. The whole world provided assistance because it saw the enormity of the situation. There is still political instability in Haiti. There cannot be a government, only a transitional government. The current situation, the economic and social insecurity, the health problems because of all the epidemics, all those things have not been dealt with.

Traditionally, Canada is not in the habit of sending people back to a country where they are still more vulnerable than they are at present. We need to develop a discourse to encourage this trust, so that people feel that when they deal with the Canadian government, the experience is positive, and that they have no reason to be afraid because things work when we do what is required.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

As we found out from speaking to government officials in our last session, the acceptance rate for the program, implemented last time, was 93%. Those who have applied for the humanitarian and compassionate grounds under special measures have seen a very high acceptance rate.

Could it be better if we were able to share—if the Haitian community and the Zimbabwean community could share with their fellow community members—that the acceptance rate is very high and that in fact the rejection rate of 7% may be due to criminality or may just be due to applications, as Mr. Cima had said, that may not have been filled in properly?

Then I'll have a follow-up question in regard to the application process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

It will have to be a very short follow-up.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Okay. Then I'll reiterate it right now.

What documents can we eliminate or have reason.... Which ones are the obstacles to getting permanent residency that you specifically are targeting that might be hard to get from Haiti now?

[Marie-Jocelyne Simon]

I will say a few words on the topic.

You talked about an approval rate of 93%. As for the remaining 7%, my advice would be to reach out to the people concerned. There are many tools that can be used to reach out to them. In Montreal, there are community stations and small neighbourhood newspapers.

As I said already, there is a great deal of mistrust, even in terms of coming in to fill out the forms. We have to figure out how we can sit down with someone to tell them that we are prepared to walk them through the procedure, that they don't need to be afraid and that we will be there for them.

You may think that 7% of 3,000 to 4,000 individuals is not a lot, but that is still a good number of people. I recommend that you work with us, in Montreal, to reach out to those people and implement tools to help them fill out the form. I am sure that, provided they have no criminal record, their application will be approved and they will be ready to stay. As for us, we have to work together to help them with their integration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

You have 30 seconds left to answer.

[Pierreson Vaval]

Yes, the approval rate is high, but we have to make sure that, each time a program is implemented and a particular situation arises, the requirements are adapted. In this case, we are talking about a situation that has been ongoing for 10 years. The requirements are poorly adapted to our experience. There are 4,000 people, and we will have to find a way to proceed, out of respect for the Haitian community that is building Canada. It is not as if we were no one. We are asking for adaptation. For example, people may not be able to provide a baptismal certificate, ID cards or a passport, but that is due to the situation in the country. So what should be done?

Of course, the community stakeholders will have to have faith, but let's work together. We understand that there is occasionally some resistance. We want Canadians to be safe. How can we find a solution? We will find one by working together, by trusting each other and by supporting people adequately, but without bringing suspicion. We sometimes feel like we are deceiving Canadians. But that's not what is happening at all. Haitian nationals are facing difficult situations. They are ready to testify, to appear and to collaborate. Let's work on resolving their status.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Mr. Vaval.

Ms. Simon and Mr. Vaval, we heard Mr. Cima talk about his situation. He gave $16,000 to lawyers and representatives for their services. You have done a lot of work in the Haitian-Canadian community. Are there many cases like his? Is that something that happens occasionally? Are there many similar situations? Also, who are the lawyers asking for a lot of money to move applications forward, as in Mr. Cima's experience?

[Pierreson Vaval]

There are people like that everywhere. It's not news to you that there is a sort of economy in place that exploits the most vulnerable people. Mr. Cima is a good example of that. He received dubious assistance from certain individuals.

The authorities should strengthen the support provided to the official organizations that work, along with the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec, on raising awareness across the community. As Marie-Jocelyne explained, the Haitian community is in the habit of mistrusting anything coming from the state because of the situation in Haiti and traditions related to everything that has happened in the country—dictatorship and so on. They try to go through the sea and not through official channels, believing that things will go better and they will arrive safely.

Still today, there are people in the community who propose alternatives. That is what we need to fight by changing the Government of Canada's message, which could mean that people will realize that they can get more effective solutions with the government's help. I believe there is much work to be done in that area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all the witnesses.

We will now suspend once again.

Thank you so much to the witnesses. I understand the witnesses have requested that we take a group photograph after we've suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]