Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2017

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I have 10 seconds?

Just before the House rose, we were advised that for family reunification there would be a lottery system for parents and grandparents instead of the first-come, first-served system. Can you tell us a bit about that and why that came about? I have a feeling that some people are going to be upset with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Give a very brief response, please.

[Robert Orr, Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Chair, with parents and grandparents, essentially the demand for places exceeds the number of places that are available, even within the doubling of the cap to 10,000. We tried to come up with what we think is the fairest way to go about it, and thus we asked for expressions of interest to apply. We have received those. It is now closed.

We're now going through the process of all those expressions of interest we've received to make sure they're not duplicates and so on, and we're scrubbing the numbers on those. Then we will begin to invite up to 10,000 people to apply. Given the situation, we thought this was the fairest way to go about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

Ms. Kwan is next, please, for seven minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have three areas of questions.

First, just to tee off, on the $45 million or $46 million to increase the numbers for parents and grandparents to 10,000 in the modelling, does that modelling include also the contributions that those parents and grandparents would bring economically? That is to say, aside from the cost for you to process, what is the contribution back to our economy, be it by way of the parent being able to get out into the workforce or whatever the case may be? I think that's an important part to include in the modelling as well.

I want to move on to my other question related to the live-in care workers, which is the caregiver program, because there has been a shift related to that question. Ms. Snow actually responded on the question to committee members to say that particularly in Manila, the staff consistently meets their levels as they are determined by the department, so it speaks well to this to say that people are working hard and meeting those levels. When we got the response back to say what the wait times are, they are 17 months on average, and we're at 76 months for Manila; that is to say, it is 6.3 years in addition to the two years that they are required to work before they can even make an application. That's 8.3 years. By any stretch of the imagination, reuniting families in the timeframe of 8.3 years is not a good timeframe.

To that end, I'm really interested in understanding what the numbers are for the levels, the targets that are allocated for this stream. I don't know if I can get those numbers, because related to that I got a response back when I tried to get the target numbers for all the different countries for parent and grandparent reunification, and that response said, “The department cannot release office-specific targets publicly.” Then it cited the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act.

If we cannot get the information for this year because it's government operations, can I then get the numbers for last year? I want to get a sense of what those targets are, because that builds into the delays, and where the country of origin is in terms of those delays, which will give us a sense of the lay of the land.

Those are the three areas that I would love to get answers for. It sounds like an undertaking, Mr. Chair. I will preface this to say that if this is an undertaking for which I cannot get an answer at this meeting, even if I can't get it for the committee's report—and I don't want to impede the work of the report any further—I would still love to get the answer at some point just so I get a better understanding of the situation.

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, on the first question, we recognize the important contribution that parents and grandparents make to the well-being of families in Canada and their ability to participate in the economy.

However, when we do costing, which are fiscal costs, we don't include those benefits in the costing that we do. The costs that you have received are direct fiscal costs to the federal government.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Can I pause you for a minute?

Does anybody within the department undertake to get the costing in terms of the benefits, or is that outside of this department's realm?

[Marta Morgan]

We have evaluations of the benefits. However, we don't cost specifically, across any of our streams, the benefits of bringing in an immigrant. We evaluate how immigrants do when they get here, what their incomes are, and how they contribute to family life in other ways than income.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On that valuation, then, it would be useful for us to know what those contributions are. Can you provide that information to us and quantify it in some way, and also to break down this $45 million into the categories? You cite resettlement as part of that. How much goes into resettlement? In actuality, how many people do you project would get into the need for language training, for example? It would be very useful to get a sense of how that's broken down.

[Robert Orr]

I might need a second to answer parts of the questions.

In fact, they're very much linked. The overall processing time now for live-in caregivers is approximately 48 months. That is why one of the decisions was made to maintain a high-level space this year of 20,000, which will allow us to work through these applications.

What you are going to be seeing is continued high average processing times for this year, in 2017, because we're still working through some very old applications. However, once we get into newer applications in 2018, I think you'll see a precipitous drop in processing times for the live-in caregiver program.

One of the reasons it's so difficult to give the mission targets and so on is that we very much work on a centralized process. A large number of these applications never go back to the missions; they're done through the centralized network. That is the reason that when you do see processing times in a particular mission—and Manilla is a particular one for the live-in caregiver program—it looks worse than elsewhere, because they're often getting the most complicated cases, which do take longer. Their caseload is rather different from what's being done elsewhere, and that's the variation.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On that issue, as I understand it, there are some 60,000 applications that are now on hold. That's the last number we were given. That has maybe been reduced now, to I think 48,000. I don't know if that is the correct number, and perhaps you can get back to us on it.

What is your projection, then, to clear that backlog, so then people have a sense of how much longer they have to wait until they can reunite with their families?

[Robert Orr]

We understand that.

At the moment, there are about 30,000 people in the backlog for the live-in caregiver program.

As I said, in 2018 we'll start to see a significant drop in average processing times. Indeed, new applications, which continue to come in right now, are being processed quite rapidly. If they come in as a complete application, we're processing very rapidly right now. That is the good news for that category, but it certainly remains at approximately six months.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I think that's great that you're able to process the new applications more quickly, but those outstanding applications are still waiting. The truth of the matter is that some of them have waited so long that their medicals and their criminal record checks have expired. They have to pay more money. Frankly, their children have aged out, and they have to make a reapplication. People are in such a situation that their families are breaking up as a result.

What I'm really interested in understanding is what levels of numbers you need in order to process these in a timely fashion. It is not acceptable. Surely we can understand that it is not acceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

We can have a brief response, and then we'll move on to Mr. Sarai.

[Robert Orr]

I will say, Mr. Chair, I think that the 20,000 makes a significant impact this year, and in 2018 we will start to see processing times that are significantly reduced.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

Mr. Sarai, you have seven minutes, please.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'll continue on with that, as I have a lot of concerns. I have constituents who are live-in caregivers and I am asked about this a lot.

I want to be clear. There is currently a backlog of approximately 30,000 live-in caregiver applications. If that's so, and you said the newer ones are being processed faster, does that mean it's not a first in, first out, or are the new ones being accelerated and the older ones in the back of the line?

[Robert Orr]

Mr. Chair, I'll clarify, and then I'll turn to my colleague Mr. Armstrong to respond further.

No, there continues to be a first-in, first-out process. The issue is that we will ask for the applications, but then new ones coming in are often more complete, and thus we're able to proceed with them more quickly. Sometimes we don't have all the information we need on the older ones, which seems to take longer on those particular cases.

Mr. Armstrong may be able to assist.

[Paul Armstrong, Director General, Centralized Network, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Just following up on the ADM's answer, when we take the applications, we take the oldest applications first, but it then depends on client compliance. For example, on some of the applications there are issues with medical furtherances. Of the fewer than 10,000 applications, which include principal applicants, and then about 20,000 dependants overseas, sometimes there are issues. Sometimes the medical cases will have to be furthered, or sometimes there are issues with family relationships, so, for example, people will need an interview.

When we look at the overall processing time, we always operate as a department on the 80th percentile. What really drives down the processing times, as far as our clients are concerned, is the number of cases that are more complex. For example, as the ADM of operations indicated, the cases that we send to Manila are always the most complex cases, because we have a centralized model through which we apply risk triage. The cases that are straightforward we never send overseas, because we can process them more quickly. When you look at the stats from overseas in places like Manila or in other visa offices, you will always see the worst processing times, because if the case were straightforward, we wouldn't have sent it overseas.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Of the ones I have, maybe two might be a challenge, and the others fit in your 80% category. Unfortunately, they're all women, and most of them have children. Most of them have been separated from their spouses, as Ms. Kwan said, in some cases for eight years.

I want to know if they will be processed in the next six months, because I did ask this question week after week. What I'm talking about are those that are 40 months and above in processing times. Can we expect that the backlog will be done in six months? I probably gave false assurances last year, thinking they might be done by December; unfortunately they have not been.

That's something I need to know.

[Paul Armstrong]

Mr. Chair, when we look at the processing of the applications, we can see the cases that are still pending—because of medicals, or where there needs to be more information about the relationship—are a very real concern. When you look at the overall number that we have, we believe that we will begin to see significant progress in processing times by 2018. The reason is that we're trying desperately to clear up the old cases first, the cases, as you heard, Mr. Chair, where people need to have medicals because the cases have been furthered, meaning medical issues have arisen during the application process. By 2018, we firmly expect that we will see significant progress in the processing time because there's been such a significant level space given to the live-in caregiver category.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I understand that, but I'm saying we have 12 months. Is it all just going to be at the end of December? Can we anticipate a big chunk being done in the next three months, another in the next three months, so there is light at the end of the tunnel for them? Otherwise, from an 8.3-year perspective, it's a 9.3-year perspective that we have to give them hope.

It can't be that everyone is waiting for medicals. There must be an ongoing process for those who have completed everything, done everything, and theirs need to be expedited.

I understand a lot of the backlog has been done, but I am particularly dealing with only those who are 40 to 45 months and above. I haven't seen any of them get it yet, although the department's been helpful in getting some of them visas for spouses to visit. However, I haven't seen any reduction at all in the 15 cases I have in the last 12 months or in the first month of this year, so that's what I'm trying to note.

I understand the complexities in certain cases, but I'm talking about the 80% who have applications. When can we see results? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Please give just a brief answer, and then I have another question.

[Paul Armstrong]

Mr. Chairperson, we're constantly processing, and of course it's very advantageous for the department to process in a steady way as the year progresses. Certainly, as we're able to clear up those older cases, which is very much our desire, we do so, but if we can't clear them up, then we will process cases that are ready. Even though we use the first-in, first-out principle, if we have a case that's complete, ready, and compliant, we will move the case through. We always have the intention to process cases through the year and not to leave them to the end of the year. It's a constant effort to try to clear up old cases and to clear up new cases that are ready for finalization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong, and thank you, Mr. Sarai.

I'd like to thank the department officials for appearing before the committee today. We will suspend for a couple of minutes to allow us to go in camera to deal with committee business.

Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]